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Andrewlieser
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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Quick questions for any who wishes to answer. With all this talk of aileron balancing I was wondering if the aircraft involved in either flutter incidents or any of the recent accidents had standard hingless ailerons or the optional hinged ailerons? From what I've read, pilot report wise, the hingless ailerons require more force than the hinged for similar deflections. If this is this case (what you are about to read is pure speculation and unsupported by any factual data) it seems as if the hingless (original design) ailerons would be less susceptable to flutter do to the dampening effect created by the rigidty of the aluminum. Any thoughts? I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic just a plain old Joe trying to fulfill my dream of building and flying my own aircraft so please don't take my comments the wrong way.
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Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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I've been thinking about this, I'm considering putting mass balance weights on my ailerons. I'm trying to find info on balance weight ranges forward of the hinge line. This is probably one of those things you need to do some wind tunnel testing on to get it right.
My ailerons are already built with the hinge in them. Would it be possible to somehow use the hinge style aileron, but instead of using the hinge, but rivet back in a wide skin, say 100mm wide catching several rivets along the wing ribs as well as the aileron ribs, not to mention the rivets that would go through both sides of the hinge, and basically use the hinged aileron but with an added skin to act as the hinge, that way you don't have to remake the ailerons?
Yuba City clearly has hinged ailerons.
| Andrewlieser wrote: | | Quick questions for any who wishes to answer. With all this talk of aileron balancing I was wondering if the aircraft involved in either flutter incidents or any of the recent accidents had standard hingless ailerons or the optional hinged ailerons? From what I've read, pilot report wise, the hingless ailerons require more force than the hinged for similar deflections. If this is this case (what you are about to read is pure speculation and unsupported by any factual data) it seems as if the hingless (original design) ailerons would be less susceptable to flutter do to the dampening effect created by the rigidty of the aluminum. Any thoughts? I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic just a plain old Joe trying to fulfill my dream of building and flying my own aircraft so please don't take my comments the wrong way. |
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Dave Nixon
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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I went with the hingeless ailerons as recommended from the factory (vis a vis they came in the kit like that) and then I took it a step further and used push tubes to control ailerons. No cables. didn't want to mess with all of the fairing material and placement. After 20 hours, N107R is like a tank. I will say that I had an interesting moment landing with the right tank empty and left full in a little crosswind. this happened when I was preparing to fuel up an empty tank for the Dynon. Who ever said that the hingeless ailerons are stiffer is correct. While doing racetracks over the airport to burn off fuel (so I could calibrate the empty fuel tank to the Dynon) aileron pressure needed to turn was impressive. so I took to turning with the rudder. Much easier. I cannot imagine how they could possible flutter with the push rods though. N107R is a very great ride!
19 hours left on Phase I testing.
Dave Nixon Ch601XL N107R
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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I'd be interested in seeing some pics of the pushtube setup for the ailerons.
Thanks
| Dave Nixon wrote: | I went with the hingeless ailerons as recommended from the factory (vis a vis they came in the kit like that) and then I took it a step further and used push tubes to control ailerons. No cables. didn't want to mess with all of the fairing material and placement. After 20 hours, N107R is like a tank. I will say that I had an interesting moment landing with the right tank empty and left full in a little crosswind. this happened when I was preparing to fuel up an empty tank for the Dynon. Who ever said that the hingeless ailerons are stiffer is correct. While doing racetracks over the airport to burn off fuel (so I could calibrate the empty fuel tank to the Dynon) aileron pressure needed to turn was impressive. so I took to turning with the rudder. Much easier. I cannot imagine how they could possible flutter with the push rods though. N107R is a very great ride!
19 hours left on Phase I testing.
Dave Nixon Ch601XL N107R |
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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I have flown Piper Cherokees that have optional gap seals installed over the hinges to reduce drag or air flow through the wing. With the hingeless design the gap seals are already there. I think the hingeless aileron is a very elegant design.
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Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ |
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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Interesting, I was wondering about using the hinged aileron with a .016 skin sandwiched in there to act as some stiffness, but thought maybe that might pull on the rivets too much. You figure with a gap seal on top, when you deflect the aileron downwards the gap seal skin has to travel around a larger radius (ever so slightly anyway) to make the bend. Would that be enough to elongate the rivet holes or weaken the rivet heads over time?
| Ron Lendon wrote: | | I have flown Piper Cherokees that have optional gap seals installed over the hinges to reduce drag or air flow through the wing. With the hingeless design the gap seals are already there. I think the hingeless aileron is a very elegant design. |
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Andrewlieser
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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Dave, do you have any pictures of the push rod design? That sounds very intriguing!
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Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser |
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
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Andy,
The gaps seals on the Cherokee are some type of plastic. I don't know how they are attached.
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ |
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