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Europa safety and the LAA

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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

I have changed the title of this thread for obvious reasons but also because 

the argument seems to be about how safe our Europas are and how dilligent 

and thorough the PFA and their inspectors are. The AAIB report merely 

highlights the issue which I for one believe dosent exist.



 	  Quote: 	
		   With all respect to the AAIB and all others involved, i have difficulties 

 understanding the bearing of the report. Since there are a lot of flying 

 Europa's, mine being one of them, i would prefer to ask explanation and 

 remaining questions to be answered, even if this keeps wounds open.


	


The AIIB have made it very clear that whilst their remit is not to apportion 

blame, that there was no fault either on the owners, the inspector or the 

PFA' part and that the cause of the failure (ie: poor build quality) could 

not have been identified after the build by the inspectors concerned or on 

subsequent inspections. It is even possible that the original builder was 

unaware of the error he had made.



I have read the report several times and it would seem to me that they have 

left no stone unturned and explored every possible reason for this 

catastrophe.



 	  Quote: 	
		   There is no validation in the report about the quality of the inspection, 

 although the plane broke up shortly after.


	


This comment verges on slander - sorry but I cant put it any other way. I am 

sure you didnt intend it but thats how it comes accross. My initial reaction 

is where is your evidence of a culture of cover ups. Most PFA inspectors 

take their roles very seriously and there is no reason whatsoever to suggest 

that the annual inspection was in any way sub standard (this seems to be 

what your comment implies).



My understanding is that no one knows whether the flight test took place. I 

assumed at the time of the accident that the flight test could have been 

conducted during the return flight home as this is the usual practice with 

annual inspections (ie: the next flight after inspection). The report does 

not say that the flight test was conducted at Bodmin (after the inspection) 

but equally the AAIB have not said if notes/ documentation (ie: the flight 

test schedule) were found in the wreckage. I think it is safe to assume that 

if there were notes this would have been mentioned in the AAIB report.



 	  Quote: 	
		  There is no recommendation for improvement of these inspections, other then 

a case triggered inspection on the points involved. I have seen only a few 

 >PFA inspected builds and planes myself, and some of them had obvious build 

and or repair AND inspection failures. There seems to be a culture of 

trying >to keep problems under the table and out of sight. This all makes 

me wonder where the responsibilities are and should be.


	


I cannot believe you are unaware of Mods 73 and 74 (and the grounding/ 

restrictions imposed on the entire Europa fleet) . Hardly what I would 

describe as keeping problems under the table. As regards the Europa fleet 

the PFA has a list of potential problems/ issues which inspectors should pay 

particular attention to whan carrying out inspections.



The follow up/ safety actions are described at the end of the AAIB report 

and IMHO would appear to be entirely suitable.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Others have landed with disengaged anti-trim-tab lift pins, although the 

 forces were excessive. However, disengaged trim tabs are not taken in 

 account as the failure triggering event. Did i miss the reasoning behind 

 that?


	


It is interesting to note that you say LANDING with the tab disconnected. 

This dosent usually occurr unless you TAKE OFF  with them disconnected 

(which I have done !!!). There have been no reports I am aware of that have 

ever described this happening in flight (ie: disconnection). As has been 

stated in the report even if they had been disconnected this would not have 

made the aircraft uncontrollable.



Perhaps you could rephrase your concerns/ issues without reference to the 

accident/ report as in your own words this has no bearing on the subject.

(ie: What specifically are the "remaining unanswered questions")



Carl Pattinson

G-LABS



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Regards,



 Jos Okhuijsen

 Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

[quote:64771ad5e2="carl at flyers.freeser..."]

This comment verges on slander - sorry but I cant put it any other way. I am sure you didn't intend it but that's how it comes across. My initial reaction is where is your evidence of a culture of cover ups. Most PFA inspectors take their roles very seriously and there is no reason whatsoever to suggest that the annual inspection was in any way sub standard (this seems to be what your comment implies).



[/quote:64771ad5e2]

It's not the first time that i have to apologize for speaking the language, but not being able to pack the words to a sociable acceptable level. I should also have explained here that i like to simplify things to the black box theory. What's going in and what's coming out. In the inspection box goes an excellent airplane, well maintained, well flown. Out comes a plane that disintegrates in mid-air. That justifies the conclusion that the inspection box, is not working as it should. Please, bear with me, this is not an attempt to blame one inspection or one inspector. The real question is what can we do to improve the standard of the inspection during the build, after the build, and during the lifetime of the airframe.

 

As i said before, in the little exposure i have had to PFA builds, i have been pointed by re-builders to inspected and signed of parts and planes that should have been rejected. Some people who know me will nod their head now, in silence. That as an explanation for  my wondering about the keeping silent about clear mistakes. 

[quote:64771ad5e2]

I cannot believe you are unaware of Mods 73 and 74 (and the grounding/ 

restrictions imposed on the entire Europa fleet) . Hardly what I would 

describe as keeping problems under the table. As regards the Europa fleet the PFA has a list of potential problems/ issues which inspectors should pay particular attention to whan carrying out inspections.

[/quote:64771ad5e2]

I cannot believe that that list of potential problems/issues that the inspectors have is not publicly available. Or did i miss it? This could be the kind of information that could save lives in other countries, where the safety of the aircraft is primarily in the hand of the owners. Are the results of build- and yearly inspections (de-personalized) in any form available? Again, this would be a very useful tool to have.

[quote:64771ad5e2]

It is interesting to note that you say LANDING with the tab disconnected. 

This dosent usually occurr unless you TAKE OFF  with them disconnected 

(which I have done !!!). There have been no reports I am aware of that have ever described this happening in flight (ie: disconnection). As has been stated in the report even if they had been disconnected this would not have made the aircraft uncontrollable.

[/quote:64771ad5e2]

Thanks for this knowledge. So far i had assumed that without the control tabs connected the plane would not be flyable, hence not be able to land. Little additions to the knowledge base like this make the trouble of reading and writing here worth while. Now back to the unanswered questions: If a trim tab pin would have rested on the T bar, and would during the flight drop past it, inducing a Pilot Induced Oscillation,  be able to start the disaster?



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

p-a.austin(at)xnet.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: Europa Safety and the LAA

Carl Pattinson wrote:-



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>As regards the Europa fleet

the PFA has a list of potential problems/ issues which inspectors should pay
	


particular attention to when carrying out inspections.<<<<<



Carl is there any chance this PFA list can be made public or placed on the 

Europa List as a further guide for those of us deemed by our relevant 

Aviation Authorities capable to perform maintenance on our "AND ONLY OUR, 

OWN" aircraft.



Regards



Peter

#198

Trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: Europa Safety and the LAA

Hi Peter,

  

 Have a word with Neville - he will let you know.

  

 regards

  

  

  

 Trev Pond

 G-LINN

     [quote][b]

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

Thanks Peter,



The inspection list and statistical results of inspections are both of extreme importance for continued safety of our aircraft. Even more there where we do not have the benefit of a inspectors with thorough knowledge of the type. 



What is the right word to classify withholding safety critical information?



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

Carl Pattinson

Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 11

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Europa safety and the LAA

Hi Jos and others who asked about the "inspectors" list.



I may have given the impression that this is some sort of secret list but that isnt the case. It is simply a collection of notes relating to Europa issues which the PFA have sent out to owners from time to time since the Europa became a PFA aircraft. If you are a PFA (now LAA) member you would have recieved these. They are issued in a fairly random manner and I dont recall having seen any new ones for quite a while.



Past bulletins include notes on wear in the outrigger bearings and play in the tailplane assembly.



Not sure if they are available directly from the PFA though I understood they had been sent to the appropriate inspectors. Maybe someone in the know could confirm this.



As suggested previously, Neville may be able to help you if you want to get hold of them. Most have since been replaced by official Europa mods.



I will have a look in my builders file and see if I can locate any of my own copies.



Carl Pattinson

G-LABS

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Europa safety and the LAA

Jos:



 I am afraid you make assumptions where evidence is lacking. Suffice

to say that there are many areas of any europa, once completed that are 

beyond any conventional inspection or testing.



Carl:

 You confirm that these are "secret" safety lists (is that an oxymoron!)

only available to LAA members. Someone seems to forget that half the

fleet is outside the dominion of the LAA. Safety information should know

no proprietary bounds.  FAA Advisory Circulars are freely available to all.

_________________
Ira N224XS

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

">  You confirm that these are "secret" safety lists (is that an

oxymoron!)

 	  Quote: 	
		   only available to LAA members. Someone seems to forget that half the

 fleet is outside the dominion of the LAA. Safety information should know

 no proprietary bounds.  FAA Advisory Circulars are freely available to all."


	


When I was reading on Safety Bulletin for Tailplanes, I remember reading

about the "secret" safety lists. Not easy to track down, but someone was

kind enough to send me scanned copies. I have 3 files. Unfortunate any one

of those files is too large for Matronics to handle. 



I would be pleased to share files, what is easiest way? Some good

information contained I have not seen or heard discussed anywhere else.



Ron Parigoris

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

Hi Ira,



Sorry, no assumption. Somebody said that quality of inspection was guaranteed because it was done according to a list of known problem areas. On the question were that list and it's (statistical) results is available no real answer pops up, and in other postings that check list is played down to some known, factory followed up, items. 



Conventional? Is that non-destructive? testing can be very effective if you know where to look, eventually with the aid of a bore-scope or ultra sound Simple tapping also reveals a lot. But it all boils down to in depth knowledge of what you are looking for. 



In this stage i tend to give up. Everything is just fine. There are no problems because planes are inspected perfectly according to a non-existing list. Whatever happens thereafter has nothing to do with the perfect system. End of thread for me.



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

Europaowners forum, Europa files, document storage, limit on size is larger then you would like to upload.



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: Europa safety and the LAA

Ron,

Post it on the Europa Owners site.  There's a place for documents.

Bob

On Monday, May 12, 2008, at 11:39AM, <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

">  You confirm that these are "secret" safety lists (is that an

oxymoron!)

> only available to LAA members. Someone seems to forget that half the

> fleet is outside the dominion of the LAA. Safety information should know

> no proprietary bounds.  FAA Advisory Circulars are freely available to all."

When I was reading on Safety Bulletin for Tailplanes, I remember reading

about the "secret" safety lists. Not easy to track down, but someone was

kind enough to send me scanned copies. I have 3 files. Unfortunate any one

of those files is too large for Matronics to handle. 

I would be pleased to share files, what is easiest way? Some good

information contained I have not seen or heard discussed anywhere else.

Ron Parigoris

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Europa safety and the LAA

Jos:



Through my friendship with various builder assistance people,

I have heard many tales of builders going wrong, in many

imaginative ways.  How about 5 min epoxy instead of redux for

some structural joints, how about bid instead of uni and vice versus.



As I said, there are many places including inside layups, even for

drag pin sockets that are not inspectable by routine methods.



At my home base there is a gent who built a beautiful copy of an

ME109.  He expected it would be airworthy.  He built it with Home-Depot

bolts and Douglas Fir wood. On taxi, it crushed the landing gear. OK, the

PFA might have caught that one during build.



There are builders who will confound any conscientious inspector at a

years on condition inspection especially if they do not scrap off the filler

and paint.

_________________
Ira N224XS

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