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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Meeting LSA Criteria |
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What is missing in the question is whether the airplane was past the 40-hour test period or not. If it is past the test period, then I agree: It can't then be changed to meet the criteria. However, it is totally unreasonable to expect an amateur builder to be able to set a ground-adjustable prop (or choose a fixed pitch prop) that will, without a doubt, make the airplane fly below 138mph. As Gig has pointed out, reasonableness is not a characteristic of the Feds; but I really don't believe they intended to create a Catch 22. Then again, how are they going to know (or even care) what you have adjusted during the testing period? You might adjust the carb, the stabilizer attitude, tire pressure, or the prop pitch to get them right. What's the difference?
Jay in Dallas
Jeff Davidson <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jay wrote:How would you know what your airplane's stalling speed is without flying it?
This is how National EAA explains it:
Question :
I have a homebuilt airplane that meets all of the criteria for Sport Pilot except that it is a few miles an hour too fast. I would like to change the prop to a slower speed that does match Light Sport so that I can then someday fly it as a Sport Pilot. Is this possible?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer :
No, you cannot make an existing aircraft that does not meet the definition of a light-sport aircraft (ref. 14 CFR 1.1) eligibile for operation by sport pilots regardless of how you modify the aircraft. The LSA definition requires that the aircraft be both initially certificated AND continuously operated within the definition in order to be eligible for operation by sport pilots. The aircraft you describe was neither initially certificated nor continuously operated within the LSA definition, so it cannot be made eligible for operation by sport pilots.
Jeff
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jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Meeting LSA Criteria |
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Jay wrote:
What is missing in the question is whether the airplane was past the 40-hour
test period or not?
Jay,
You are right that it may be unclear in the EAA example, but in
Frank's case I don't think there is any question that the plane had been
flown past Phase I. At the end of Phase I the FAA requires:
"All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under VFR, day only.
Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in AC
90-89. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight
hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that
the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with §
91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a
similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test
hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its
normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no
hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for
operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated
during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and
the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”"
These numbers should meet the LSA criteria at all times if you want a Sport
Pilot to be able to fly it.
There are further considerations for instrument markings, etc., but here is
a question for you: May a Sport Pilot fly off Phase I of an AB Experimental
?
Jeff D.
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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Meeting LSA Criteria |
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Jeff,
A Sport Pilot can only fly an LSA, but the 601XL, registered E-AB, also qualifies as an LSA. Therefore, a Sport Pilot can fly Phase I in an XL.
Jay in Dallas
"Jeff " <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
There are further considerations for instrument markings, etc., but here is
a question for you: May a Sport Pilot fly off Phase I of an AB Experimental
?
Jeff D.
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airvair601(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: Meeting LSA Criteria |
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I believe what Jay wrote below is correct. It is my understanding that, in the
USA, any homebuilt aircraft registered after Jan 2008, must be registered an
E-AB. These Aircraft can be modified by the builder with the repair certificate, or
anyone and signed off by an A&P, if the proper forms ( I think the 336 form), are
filed to the FAA. The FAA may requires more testing etc. But, so long as the
noncertificated aircraft conforms to the SP rules, it can be flown under the SP
airman rating. There is lots of leeway to be legal with E-AB aircraft under the SP
rule. With factory built certificated light sport aircraft, even if it is identical to a kit
built version, which could be rented to the public and/or used in a flight school the
rules are tighter and the restrictions on maintenance are greater. Some of this
confusion arises because some older certificated aircraft meet the SP airman’s
restriction and because the FAA wanted to allow some grandfathering of aircraft.
But, that ship has sailed and I believe any homebuilder still building will end up
in the E-AB and if it meets SP privileges it can be flown as such. If not, it could
be modified to meet them, the forms filed, approved, and then flown under the SP
rating. I could be wrong on this and would like to be enlightened. If I am, as
Gilda Radner used to say “ OH, well never mind”
Subject: RE: Meeting LSA Criteria
From: Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Date: Tue May 13 - 7:04 PM
Jeff,
A Sport Pilot can only fly an LSA, but the 601XL, registered E-AB, also qualifies
as an LSA. Therefore, a Sport Pilot can fly Phase I in an XL.
Jay in Dallas
"Jeff " <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>There are further considerations for instrument markings, etc., but here is
>a question for you: May a Sport Pilot fly off Phase I of an AB Experimental
>?
>
>Jeff D.
>
[quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Meeting LSA Criteria |
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Hi Jay,
I am afraid you and some of the other guys are missing the whole
point on this issue. The FAA is not in the business of measuring
airspeed, stall speed, or any other quality of experimental
airplanes. They are a bunch of paper pushing bureaucrats.
Critical qualities of E-AB airplanes are taken from the printed
matter associated with the plane. In case of speeds, weights, and
other stuff that determines whether a plane qualifies as an LSA the
place to look is probably the POH. It isn't very important if the
information in the POH really matches the aircraft.
For example. if the POH says the sea level cruise speed at maximum
continuous power is 120 Knots calibrated airspeed, then it is. If it
says the stall speed clean is 45 knots, then it is.
The really important thing for builders interested in having their
planes qualify as LSA is to make sure their POH and other documents
describe a plane that meets the definition.
The issue is different for planes that have documents showing a
quality that doesn't meet the LSA definition. If such documents are
associated with the plane, then it doesn't qualify and can't be made
to qualify. It is all about the paper work.
I can't guess whether the FAA would care if a plane in phase 1
testing qualifies as an LSA or not. If a Sport Pilot is crazy enough
to perform test flights in such a poorly documented plane, then
probably the FAA bureaucrats don't have any paperwork to cite if they
want to give the pilot a hard time. I suspect it is more likely they
don't want to be involved in such trivial flight test issues at all.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 03:36 PM 5/13/2008, you wrote:
| Quote: |
What is missing in the question is whether the airplane was past the
40-hour test period or not. If it is past the test period, then I
agree: It can't then be changed to meet the criteria. However, it
is totally unreasonable to expect an amateur builder to be able to
set a ground-adjustable prop (or choose a fixed pitch prop) that
will, without a doubt, make the airplane fly below 138mph. As Gig
has pointed out, reasonableness is not a characteristic of the Feds;
but I really don't believe they intended to create a Catch 22. Then
again, how are they going to know (or even care) what you have
adjusted during the testing period? You might adjust the carb, the
stabilizer attitude, tire pressure, or the prop pitch to get them
right. What's the difference?
Jay in Dallas
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: Meeting LSA Criteria |
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Paul,
You are correct that the POH should include the information showing
compliance to the LSA rule. Taking a step back - the FAA considers each
E-AB plane a unique aircraft and as such looks to the manufacturer (not the
kit manufacturer but the person who's name is on the data plate) to produce
the POH and include the performance and weight numbers for his aircraft
discovered in Phase 1 testing.
All the data that would show compliance to the LSA parameters should be
noted in the aircraft log during initial Phase 1 testing. Vh is one very
important speed and must be 120 knots or less. If your log shows 121 or
more your plane is not LSA eligible. Vsi is another important one for LSA.
45 knots is maximum.
There is a good FAA advisory circular that is great help in sorting out the
necessary documentation during the initial flight testing. EAA's flight
advisors can help as well to make sure your log and ultimately your POH
shows compliance to the LSA parameters.
Pete
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