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Aileron Balance Video

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moorecomp

Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on youtube from Airfox.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM



Best regards,



Craig Moore A&P

Mancelona, MI

do not archive

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

Thanks, this is nearly identical to the design I came up with, except on the XL, the mount would have to be on the next aileron rib in from the end because the outside aileron rib is on an angle and is the end of the aileron/wing.



The thing is, from what I'm reading is that there seems to be a range of how far forward of the hinge line the balance can go. Disregarding the fact that this counterweight needs to fit inside the wing, this aileron could be balanced with a 16 ounce weight another foot forward and still balance the aileron, but would a lighter weight on a longer moment arm cause a problem (actually induce flutter rather than suppress it), and conversely would too heavy of a weight closer to the hinge cause a problem?



If someone could find recommended distance forward of the hinge that would be nice. I suspect that info may need to be gleaned in a wind-tunnel.



Sorry, I just noticed this was in fact a 601XL, Airfox threw me off and I'm thinking Kit Fox. I guess this 601XL has different wing tips. Anyway, can we get some more info on this, measurements, weights etc...? Has this been tested in flight? Being that I'm going with the standard plans wingtips I was going to do this same deal on the next aileron rib in from the end.



 	  moorecomp wrote: 	
		  For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on youtube from Airfox.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM



Best regards,



Craig Moore A&P

Mancelona, MI

do not archive

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES 

By Tony Bingelis 



http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html



 	  Tony Bingelis wrote: 	
		  However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency. 	




- Pat

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

moorecomp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on

 youtube from Airfox.


	


Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've

seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface

should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is

at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is

there a  weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing

one...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

http://www.hercules-390.org               (Yes, that's me!)

Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

Jay,

I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness.  Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Jay in Dallas  CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"

Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

moorecomp wrote:

> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on

> youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've

seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface

should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is

at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is

there a  weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing

one...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

http://www.hercules-390.org               (Yes, that's me!)

Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

Hi there ,



Have anyone on the list submitted this modification to ZAC for the proper evaluation of the modification? I would not do any modification to my XL until the factory aprroves such things. Thats my opinion anyway. 

 

Take care, 



Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



2008/5/14 PatrickW <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com (pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com)>:

 [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com (pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES

 By Tony Bingelis

 

 http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html

 

 

 Tony Bingelis wrote:

 > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency.

  

 

 - Pat

 

 --------

 Patrick

 601XL/Corvair

 N63PZ (reserved)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:32:05AM -0400, Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris

 Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much

 experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.


	


Okkay, so I'm missing something even more fundamental. I thought balanced

control surfaces were necessary to avoid flutter in the first place. Is this

not the case?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane,

 add lightness.  Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am

 absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing

 effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is

 potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.


	


Well, I'm not in a position to add anything to my Zodiac; the last I heard

(last Friday), it was a pile of parts on the factory floor.  Even after I

get it, I'm still not going to do anything of the sort. That's the downside

of buying an SLSA: it's *not* an Experimental, so I can't experiment on it.



If I were in such a position, though, I'd think long and hard before making

a modification of that sort. The effects, as you point out, propagate. I'm

also a fan of Antoine de Saint-Exupery's dictum that "perfection in design

is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing

left to be taken away".

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.



First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them.



Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.



And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 06:18:44AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on

 the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way

 out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.


	


True. (Well, I dunno about "a whole lot of weight", but it would seem that

the balance weight would be on the same order of magnitude as the weight of

the aileron itself. How much does the aileron weigh?)



 	  Quote: 	
		   First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has

 been no mention of flutter with them.


	


Do any of the other 601s have aileron trim? That, it would seem to me, would

substantially increase the weight out at the trailing edge of the aileron,

thus increasing the possibility of flutter.



I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. I'm asking, becuse I honestly don't

know.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include

 something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the

 plans.


	


I think Chris Heintz's track record speaks for itself. Still, there's gotta

be some fire underneath all that smoke.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that

 just spun in?


	


Identical to (as far as we can tell in the video). Different registration

number. That may or may not have been a factor in the accident.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

http://www.hercules-390.org               (Yes, that's me!)

Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

You have to design one, like the Air Fox guy did. His design looks like mine, I'm just wondering about the combination or distance forward and weight. An infinite number of configurations will balance the aileron, I'm concerned about the moment arm length. Which would suppress fletter better, a heavy weight further back, or a lighter weight further forward. In a dynamic situation with air flowing over the aileron I'm sure the weight/moment arm combo is a factor in resonant frequency.



 	  jmaynard wrote: 	
		  moorecomp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on

 youtube from Airfox.



	


Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've

seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface

should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is

at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is

there a  weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing

one...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

http://www.hercules-390.org               (Yes, that's me!)

Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

Gig,



I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment.



Take care, 

 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



2008/5/14 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>:

[quote]  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.

 

 First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them.

 

 Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.

 

 And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in?

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

Actually, who know whether it needs it or not, but all certified planes are required to have them apparently. Apparently Chris feels it's not needed and he's probably right. Although with the hinged ailerons it may be a good idea.

Gig, a whole lot of weight? There's tons of planes out there flying around with these weights on them.

 	  Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	
		  Jay,

I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness.  Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Jay in Dallas  CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"

Jay Maynard <jmaynard> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

moorecomp wrote:

> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on

> youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've

seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface

should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is

at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is

there a  weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing

one...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

http://www.hercules-390.org               (Yes, that's me!)

Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

There are many variables here. Usually you balance to a specified attitude or angle compared to the cord line; not all balancing is 100% mass balanced. For a particular design it may be 20%, 50%, 70%, etc. which under dynamic conditions provides the optimal flutter resistance or at least flutter resistance within the aircrafts design performance envelope. Most small aircraft do not undergo wind tunnel testing, it's all theoretical design and then flight test within the performance envelope. So if you don't know the theory, I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test.

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video

 	  steveadams wrote: 	
		  I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test. 	


When it comes right down to it, that is exactly what we who are involved in experimental aviation are doing.



At least those of us with parachutes or BRS's....



- Pat

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

do not archive



weight at the tip is adding load to the root only on the ground. In flight it is sort of like span loading.



Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] Gig,



I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment.



Take care, 

 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



2008/5/14 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>:

[quote]  --> Zenith601-List message posted  by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.

 

 First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them.

 

 Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.

 

 And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in?

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

Hello Jay,

  I  also remember reading from Graham Lee +   The designer of the Nieuport 11 Replica this:

  "To an airplane only add Lightness and Simplicity"   

  I have one sign of this (betwen several) in my shop in big letters.  

  Another one I like very much is (translated in my english):

  "The time used in doing the things right  is never  a lost of time". 

  Saludos

  Gary Gower.

  Do not archive.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

Jay,

I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He  just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"

Jay Maynard wrote:

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard 

moorecomp wrote:

> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on

> youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've

seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface

should balance on the hinge           [quote][b]

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

Thanks for the reference, Pat. If you follow that link up a couple of 

levels, there are links to quite a few interesting articles. see



http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/



Many of the links on that page ending with .html take you to lists of some 

of the various articles.



Meanwhile, Bingelis' book, "Sportplane Construction Techniques" (I got mine 

from the EAA) has the balance article plus lots of other Bingelis articles, 

including "push-pull tube connections," "control cables," etc. I put the 

Bingelis 4 book collection on my Christmas list. It has proven to be a good 

collection of building hints.



Terry

do not archive



At 04:52 AM 5/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES

By Tony Bingelis



http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html

Tony Bingelis wrote:

 > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans 

 require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be 

 sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for 

 that tendency.

- Pat



--------

Patrick

601XL/Corvair

N63PZ (reserved)


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Yak52(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Aileron Balance Video

"Working from a good set of plans helps resolve the  dilemma. The designer will have already investigated and eliminated the problem  in the construction and subsequent flight test evaluations of the prototype  "

  

 While you are pondering this statement from the article, and the further  statement that many airplanes do not have balanced control surfaces- please also  consider how you are going to evaluate the torsional effects of placing these  weights on one end of the aileron- i.e. the twist that will be placed on the  aileron at speed; and whether or not the end ribs in the aileron will withstand  those stresses as they were clearly not designed to handle either or both of  them in this airpalne.



Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

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