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Aileron balance
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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: Aileron balance

OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!



Jay in Dallas

TxDave

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
Location: Temple, TX

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

Good question, Jay. On the EAA Web site there are a couple of good articles on this topic by Tony Bingelis. He says, depending on the design, balancing may or may not be necessary.



Dave Clay

Temple, TX

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

The reason is to avoid the type of flutter experienced by Roberto Brito. He did balance his ailerons and have not experienced flutter again.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

 	  Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	
		  OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!



Jay in Dallas

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: Aileron balance

Not to start an argument, but I was referring to a CH 601XL.  Roberto Brito's airplane is NOT a CH 601XL.  Any problems he has with his airplanes has no more to do with my XL than does a space shuttle.

Jay in Dallas

Do Not Archive.

"William Dominguez" <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

The reason is to avoid the type of flutter experienced by Roberto Brito. He did balance his ailerons and have not experienced flutter again.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

> OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!

> 

> Jay in Dallas

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183140#183140

pmaxpmax(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Aileron balance

There is so much speculation and conjecture on this list it is almost impossible for the average reader to wade through all the garbage to find the truth.  Two subject come to mind: FLUTTER and WING STRENGTH.  These subjects have been discussed ad nausium in the archives and now have a lives of their own.

  

 This is not more speculation or opinion.  This is a statement about how I fly and intend to fly.

  

 FLUTTER: I have never seen any evidence that brings me to believe that any CH601XL has ever experienced flutter of the control surfaces during operation at speeds below Vne.  I am not worried about it and until Chris Heintz says he is concerned.  I make this decision for myself, my family and my passengers.  

  

 WING STRENGTH: I never seen any evidence that brings me to believe that any CH601XL has ever lost a wing due to structural failure during operation within normal parameters (weight, correct G-loads and speeds below Vne).  I'm not worried about it until Chris Hientz says he is concerned.  I make this decision for myself, my family and my passengers.



Phil Maxson

 601XL/Corvair (150 Hours)

 Northwest New Jersey

   

 > Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:17:58 -0400

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Aileron balance

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 

 OK, I guess I missed something. With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons. Just what is that reason? Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!

 

 Jay in Dallas


	


Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Aileron balance

all:



1- noone knows yet what caaused the accidents

2- no one knows if flutter was an issue, its apparently a hunch to some on this site

3- If it was flutter, were the cables probably tensioned to 30 lbs.



before you go down the path of fixing a flutter issue, check to see if it really the issue.



A thought is to build it to the plans.  that means tesnion your cables, and check the tension on a regular basis.

 No, cables are not a primative way to move or tension the ailerons, check most high performance turbine aircraft like the TBM or C-90, they use cables.  they just need to be built correctly.



Juan



--

lenabeto(at)uol.com.br
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Aileron Balance

Hi  everybody,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

  

Here  is the You Tube Video about my aileron  balance. 

This  is only a way for doing this, there are of course, other ways, for  example. 

I'll  post some pictures to you all that need  them. 

Please do not do this in your plane before talking to  your Aeronautical Engineer or other authority about  it. 

I  don’t want to state hereby that it is the solution to the problem on our  Zodiacs, if any, because I’m not an aeronautical  engineer. 

Well,  when my Zodiac entered a little turbulence, the ailerons shook a little and  after towards I had the balance performed, it enters and nothing happens, it  became much better, more comfortable. 

I  hope that all Zodiac Owners can solve this problem, if  any. 

All  of us know that Zodiac is a good plane, that it has a good reputation, but it  must do away with the crashes.  

To  end up, I have a lot of respect regarding Heintz’s family and I’m confident that  should the Zodiac have any problem they will solve it. 

  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM 

  

Roberto Brito. 

Brasil. 

  

Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs 

Jabiru 3300 

Enigma  

  

 

  

   [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Aileron balance

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 01:32:07PM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   A thought is to build it to the plans.


	


This is a common thread - but it doesn't explain the accidents in factory

aircraft....unless we're assuming the factory didn't build it according to

the plans...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

1) to apparently tune out an resonant frequencies that could allow for flutter.



2) when the plane bounces due to turbulence, the non-balanced weight aft of the hinge will flop up and down, possibily inducing flutter. If it's balanced, the entire aileron including the balance, moves up or down in unison, not around the pivot.



 	  Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	
		  OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!



Jay in Dallas

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

Jay another assumption that is being made by some is that some or even all of the accident aircraft had only been flown within the design envelope. That has not been proved and is very hard if not impossible to prove.



 	  jmaynard wrote: 	
		  



This is a common thread - but it doesn't explain the accidents in factory

aircraft....unless we're assuming the factory didn't build it according to

the plans...

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

DO NOT ARCHIVE but....



To add to my previous post because I hit the send button to soon. I'm sure that someone is either thinking or will write that some of the accident pilots were very experienced and safe pilots and I don't doubt that.



But I've been around aircraft literally all of my 46 years and I've seen some very good, very experienced and usually very safe pilots do some VERY dumb things.



I know one guy that was a retired Lt. Col. in the USAF with multi-thousands of hours with not so much as a blip on his safety record who landed a Cessna Citation in a cow pasture to impress a lady. He had done all the weight and distance calculations and knew he would have plenty of room to take off afterwords. He didn't take into account though that it had rained the night before and as he was stepping out of the plane he realized that the plane was sinking in the mud.



The moral of the story is that experience doesn't always rule out stupidity.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

I was just trying to answer his question as to why there is interest in balancing ailerons. Obviously not a good answer in his view for reasons he clearly articulated.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

[quote="pmaxpmax(at)HOTMAIL.COM"]There is so much speculation and conjecture on this list it is almost impossible for the average reader to wade through all the garbage to find the truth.  Two subject come to mind: FLUTTER and WING STRENGTH.  These subjects have been discussed ad nausiumï¿½in the archives and now have a lives of their own.

  

 This is not more speculation or opinion.  This is a statement about how I fly and intend to fly.

  

 FLUTTER: I have never seen any evidence that brings me to believe that any CH601XL has ever experienced flutter of the control surfaces during operation at speeds below Vne.  I am not worried about it and until Chris Heintz says he is concerned.  I make this decision for myself, my family and my passengers.  

  

 WING STRENGTH: I never seen any evidence that brings me to believe that any CH601XL has ever lost a wing due to structural failure during operation within normal parameters (weight, correct G-loads and speeds below Vne).ï¿½ I'm not worried about it until Chris Hientz says he is concerned.  I make this decision for myself, my family and my passengers.



Philï¿½Maxson

 601XL/Corvair (150 Hours)

 Northwest New Jersey

   

 > Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:17:58 -0400

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Aileron balance

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 

 OK, I guess I missed something. With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons. Just what is that reason? Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!

 

 Jay in Dallas



	


Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Aileron balance

Andy,

Where is the evidence that ANY of this is needed?

Jay in Dallas

Do not archive

"ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

1) to apparently tune out an resonant frequencies that could allow for flutter.

2) when the plane bounces due to turbulence, the non-balanced weight aft of the hinge will flop up and down, possibily inducing flutter. If it's balanced, the entire aileron including the balance, moves up or down in unison, not around the pivot.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

> OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!

> 

> Jay in Dallas

--------

Andy Shontz

do not archive

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183162#183162

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron balance

I know you are asking Andy but I'll try for a second time to answer your question since I didn't do a very good job the first time.

There isn't a hard, smoking gun type of evidence of flutter. But there are indications that suggest there might be a flutter problem with the XL. I won't get at what those indications are, they have been mentioned in many posts in this list. Should there be a hard evidence of flutter before we implement any change to our wings? absolutely. But in the meanwhile some of us would like to see how the ailerons are balanced, just in case the evidence come and we need to do that in the future. After all, is good learning. If you are the type of person who don't like to talk about thing that might or might not be needed in the future, that is fine. But not everyone is the same. 

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

 	  Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	
		  Andy,

Where is the evidence that ANY of this is needed?

Jay in Dallas

Do not archive

"ashontz" <ashontz> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

1) to apparently tune out an resonant frequencies that could allow for flutter.

2) when the plane bounces due to turbulence, the non-balanced weight aft of the hinge will flop up and down, possibily inducing flutter. If it's balanced, the entire aileron including the balance, moves up or down in unison, not around the pivot.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

> OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!

> 

> Jay in Dallas

--------

Andy Shontz

do not archive

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183162#183162

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Aileron balance

Jay

I may regret entering this "discussion", but . . .  If someone wants to 

balance there ailerons (as Roberto did), and test it. What is the 

problem with that? If you think his idea is dangerous for some reason, 

please state it and why. There are a lot of people contemplating 

"improvments" (or whatever you wish to call them). We should  be here to 

encourage them to do these things safely by pointing out any errors in 

thinking (such as shock type dampers freezing up and such) that might 

lead someone to do something really dangerous. Shooting down ideas 

simply because you don't believe it is necessary is beside the point. 

Obviously Andy and some others (myself included) think it may be, or may 

prove to be, necessary to balancing the ailerons. I am not convinced 

there is a problem either, nor am I convinced there isn't. When you see 

hoof prints in Tennessee, think horses not zebras, unless the local zoo 

reports missing a zebra.

Kevin Bonds

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Andy,

 Where is the evidence that ANY of this is needed?

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

> 

>

>

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: Aileron balance

Bill,

Just because it is mentioned on this forum doesn't give it any more validity than "as seen on TV." Exactly what are "the indications that suggest that there might be a flutter problem with the XL"?  Is it because someone on the forum said so?  Is it because Brito's airplane (NOT an XL) had a flutter problem? 

I'm afraid that too many are giving credence to, supporting and taking for granted some of the things said on the forum that have absolutely no basis in fact: speculation, guess, extrapolation, armchair engineering and outright scare mongering.  

I'm certainly not opposed to the sharing of ideas and real knowledge, but I'm really getting tired of the spurious scuttlebutt that is being passed off as valid information.

Jay in Dallas

Do not archive

"William Dominguez" <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

I know you are asking Andy but I'll try for a second time to answer your question since I didn't do a very good job the first time.

There isn't a hard, smoking gun type of evidence of flutter. But there are indications that suggest there might be a flutter problem with the XL. I won't get at what those indications are, they have been mentioned in many posts in this list. Should there be a hard evidence of flutter before we implement any change to our wings? absolutely. But in the meanwhile some of us would like to see how the ailerons are balanced, just in case the evidence come and we need to do that in the future. After all, is good learning. If you are the type of person who don't like to talk about thing that might or might not be needed in the future, that is fine. But not everyone is the same. 

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

> Andy,

> 

> Where is the evidence that ANY of this is needed?

> 

> Jay in Dallas

> Do not archive

> 

> 

> "ashontz"  wrote:

> 

> 

> > 

> > 

> > 1) to apparently tune out an resonant frequencies that could allow for flutter.

> > 

> > 2) when the plane bounces due to turbulence, the non-balanced weight aft of the hinge will flop up and down, possibily inducing flutter. If it's balanced, the entire aileron including the balance, moves up or down in unison, not around the pivot.

> > 

> > 

> > Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

> > > OK, I guess I missed something.  With all this e-talk about how to balance the ailerons, there has got to be a good reason one would want to balance the ailerons.  Just what is that reason?  Not speculation, not a guess, not conjecture; a REASON. PLEASE!

> > > 

> > > Jay in Dallas

> > 

> > 

> > --------

> > Andy Shontz

> > 

> > do not archive

> > 

> > CH601XL - Corvair

> > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > Read this topic online here:

> > 

> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183162#183162

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> 

--------

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183178#183178

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Aileron balance

Maynard,

you stated-

...unless we're assuming the factory didn't build it according to

 	  Quote: 	
		  > the plans...


	


I say- 

you are assuming the accident was from Flutter,  no one has said any of the accidents were flutter, just speculation from a bunch of builders at this point.  

There are plans in the Zenith Newsletter for weights on ailerons. Allready approved By the C.H. himself.  If you want to balance the ailerons to make them feel lighter at higher speds, that is what the weighting is for.  Flutter should not be an issue at all when flown at cruise speed.  I have my cables tensioned according to plans, and I believe you are all barking up the wrong tree.

Some guy that saw tin canning and misstook it for flutter does not make for a reason to speculate the flutter was a cuase of the accident.  It may have been if the guys flying it 1- never retensioned their cables and 2- flew past reasonable parrameters.



I am done on this whole issue.  You guys need to focus on having fun building your planes again, if that is what you guys in this site are really doing.   

Juan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Aileron balance

Maynard,

you stated-

...unless we're assuming the factory didn't build it according to

 	  Quote: 	
		  > the plans...


	


I say- 

you are assuming the accident was from Flutter,  no one has said any of the accidents were flutter, just speculation from a bunch of builders at this point.  

There are plans in the Zenith Newsletter for weights on ailerons. Allready approved By the C.H. himself.  If you want to balance the ailerons to make them feel lighter at higher speds, that is what the weighting is for.  Flutter should not be an issue at all when flown at cruise speed.  I have my cables tensioned according to plans, and I believe you are all barking up the wrong tree.

Some guy that saw tin canning and misstook it for flutter does not make for a reason to speculate the flutter was a cuase of the accident.  It may have been if the guys flying it 1- never retensioned their cables and 2- flew past reasonable parrameters.



I am done on this whole issue.  You guys need to focus on having fun building your planes again, if that is what you guys in this site are really doing.   

Juan



--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Aileron balance

I heard that the inferior rivets caused the wing to flutter which caused the 

aileron to fall off which made the wing locker to open causing the rear spar 

to crack which in turn caused the pilot to shit his pants.

FAA reports that the probable cause :  pilot attempted to wipe his ass in 

flight causing loss of control....

---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Aileron balance

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 05:05:08PM -0400, Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just because it is mentioned on this forum doesn't give it any more

 validity than "as seen on TV." Exactly what are "the indications that

 suggest that there might be a flutter problem with the XL"?  Is it because

 someone on the forum said so?  Is it because Brito's airplane (NOT an XL)

 had a flutter problem?


	


I can't speak to anyone else, but flutter seems to be a reasonable

explanation for the Yuba City crash. What other explanations might there be

for the missing aileron, with every rivet missing and the skins intact? As I

said before, I'm not an aeronautical engineer, so if there's another

explanation - and remember, this was a factory aircraft - I'm all ears.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm afraid that too many are giving credence to, supporting and taking for

 granted some of the things said on the forum that have absolutely no basis

 in fact: speculation, guess, extrapolation, armchair engineering and

 outright scare mongering.


	


This is not my intention, at least, and I'm sorry if it comes across that

way. I'm genuinely interested to understand what's going on in all phases of

this issue, and am learning quite a bit from the discussions.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

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