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Tansfer pump Ideas?
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knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:41 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Hi guys This list is a great resource for Mod Ideas.. 

  Question for you....Â 

  

 

  I'm looking to build a transfer pump I can attach to a 5 Gallon gas can..

  Battery powered would be find...Â 

  

 

  Gravity might also work as the secondary tank will sit above the main 10 gallon tank...

  Reaching a Â valve could be an issue..Â 

  

 

  Any Ideas welcome

  

 

  Thanks

  

 

  Mark

  

 

 --

airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Question for you.... 

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm looking to build a transfer pump I can attach to a

 5 Gallon gas can...

 

 Battery powered would be find... 

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Any Ideas welcome

 Thanks 

 Mark


	


  Mark,



  I would suggest an "in-tank" fuel pump. eBay has tons of 'em to investigate.  Usually they come with a built-in pickup screen, and put out a significant volume!  You could mount it inside your gas can, plus the wires to hook it up are on the outside mounting unit.  You could arrange the electric wires to have 15' leads, with battery post clips, and use any 12 volt battery to transfer fuel rapidly.



  This is EXACTLY what powers my fuel system for my GEO 1.0 fuel injected engine on my MkIII.  My pump was brand new, and cost me $30.



  Take a look at eBay's selection of fuel pumps, and I'm sure you'd find precisely what you're after.



Mike Welch

MkIIICX

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Is this for use in flight, or on the ground to refuel?



Jim

N. Idaho

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?



 Is this for use in flight, or on the ground to refuel?



 Jim

 N. Idaho


	


  Jim,



 It was my understanding Mark planned on transferring fuel in-flight.  Here's Mark's reply to me.



 	  Quote: 	
		  My goal is to install this system in a portable  5 Gallon

 Plastic Fuel Can so I can strap it in the back seat when 

 I need the extra range...   


	


  So, in answer to your question, yes, it appears so.



Mike "Dudley" Welch

MkIIICX



_________________________________________________________________

Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

I put one of these in my 220HP 4-seater experimental.  I don't use it much (prime & emergency), but it should transfer 5 gallons in 10 minutes.  With no moving parts, it should last forever.



I would probably plug it into my cigarette lighter jack when I wanted to transfer fuel.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

I do not like " In Tank " fuel pumps for this application, you are just looking for problems mounting it in the tank with wires etc.  Sounds like an inflight emergency or fire waiting to happen.



I use the Facet pump Jim was talking about, it transfers 6 gallons in about 10 minutes, works very well, and is fool proof, and much easier to install than some " In tank " pump.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Hi Jim I'm Looking to design an In flight transfer system....Â 

  I found some 12 Volt in tank pumps on E-Bay that might be just the ticket..

  

 

  Mark

  Â 

 

 

 --

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Hi JImÂ  Thanks for the Â Pump link......

  That has possibilities....

  

 

  

  

 

  Mark

  

 

 

 --

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I do not like " In Tank " fuel pumps for this application, you are just looking for problems mounting it in the tank with wires etc. Sounds like an inflight emergency or fire waiting to happen.



 I use the Facet pump Jim was talking about, it transfers 6 gallons in about 10 minutes, works very well, and is fool proof, and much easier to install than some " In tank " pump.



 Mike


	


  Mike,



  You opine about something you are obviously NOT familiar with.  There are literally MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS of in-tank fuel pumps.  In fact, it is virtually impossible to purchase a new vehicle in the United States without an in-tank fuel pump.  99.999% of vehicles with fuel injection come with in-tank fuel pumps.  And you just about can't buy a car without fuel injection, and ALL fuel injection cars use in-tank fuel pumps!!  Why??  Because they are UNSAFE??   NO!!  Because they ARE SAFE!!!



  FYI, your "wires, etc." make it sound like the boogie man is going to somehow get you.  In-tank type pumps use what's known as "BRUSHLESS" motors.  That means there aren't any "sparks" or "wires, etc." to create a problem.

Brushless motors use electrical current to make the rotor rotate.  Not brushes and electrical sparking!  They don't have any way on earth to create a fire hazard.  Otherwise, why would EVERY automobile manufacturer on Earth be using them???  The "wires" hook up outside the tank.  There's no more likeliness of a problem with these wires than with any other wiring in your plane.



  Lastly, since Mark suggested he was planning to use this fuel transfer "in-flight", he would want his fuel pick-up to be solidly mounted, at the bottom of the tank, with NO chance of shifting due to turbulence.  By just inserting a tube down inside a container does not insure it is going to be sucking up fuel correctly at the bottom of the tank.  By mounting an in-tank pump PROPERLY, the suction point of the pump is solidly fixed in one spot, at the bottom of the tank, surrounded by a filtering screen.



  Done correctly, especially during inflight situations where you can't "jiggle" the suction tube, an in-tank pump can well be one of, if not THE most dependable pumps available!  In fact, this is EXACTLY my fuel delivery arrangement for my GEO 1.0L fuel injected engine.



  The danger is not knowing anything about the information you espouse.  If you own a vehicle, it has an in-tank fuel pump.



Mike "Dudley" Welch

MkIII CX



_________________________________________________________________

Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.

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David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Just looked at the Aircraft Spruce site. There was one warning down the bottom of the page;



 	  Quote: 	
		  Note: The pumps above do not feature an anti-siphoning valve and fuel will flow through them in event of pump failure. 	




Worth keeping in mind.



David.

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

 	  Quote: 	
		   I do not like " In Tank " fuel pumps for this application, you are just looking for problems mounting it in the tank with wires etc. Sounds like an inflight emergency or fire waiting to happen. 	




Think it's more of a 'psychological' barrier than a 'technical' issue Mike.



I assume from your 'JetPilot' handle that you would know that most, if not all of the 'heavy iron' use low pressure fuel pumps that are embedded into the tank or collector tank of the fuel system. More than that, they even plan on using the fuel passing through them both as a lubricant of the moving parts of the pump and to cool it (the punp) as well, and also to heat the fuel which may be cold soaked.



But of course these system are tested extensively before even getting anywhere near an aircraft. Still, the experience of the Auto industry backs up the logic of the application.



Still, I have certain reservations about it as you do, but then again, is it safe to get out of bed this morning ?



David.

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

GuysÂ  agree they are safe for their intended use but ARE! Â they safe for my intended use ? I'm my case the safe factor extends to reliability... Â In a car you just pull off to the side of the road..

  

 

  Given that It will be tough to tell when Â the Pump is running dry, Â Ware on the pump is a concern...

  Running DryÂ i would suspect will affects future reliability..

   

 

  Given they weren't designed for my intended use "are they SAFE" IMO seem to be a fair question ..

  

 

  BUT i guess that's why I we fly EXPERIMENTALSÂ HUH!  hahahaha

  

 

  Mark

 

 

 --

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Kolb Flyers,



I am very well aware that there are millions of in tank transfer pumps in use in all sorts of things, including the airplanes I fly and the cars I drive.  The important fact in these vehicles is that the tanks are designed from the start to have such a pump installed, and have very secrue mounting built in, and the pumps and wiring are well engineered and tested for each type of tank.



If you get a plastic 5 gallon tank, and then stick a cheap ebay pump into it, fly it in an ultralight with constant vibration and turbulence, everything changes, you now have a fire or other problems waiting to happen.  



The Facet pump I recommend is a much safer, and more reliable option used in hundreds and hundreds of experimental / ultralight aircraft with all sorts of different tanks.  Now given the surely fatal results of an in flight fire, why would anyone want to be the test case for an in tank pump when such a better, safe, and well tested option is readily available ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Guys 

 agree they are safe for their intended use but ARE!  they

 safe for my intended use ?

 I'm my case the safe factor extends to reliability...

  In a car you just pull off to the side of the road..

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Given that It will be tough to tell when  the Pump is

 running dry,  Ware on the pump is a concern...


	


Mark, 



  You are free to do as you please, of course, but I wouldn't give an in-tank pump's safety a second thought.

  The pump is DESIGNED to go into a container of gasoline (or diesel).

Running it dry once in awhile can't hurt it.  It is just a little brushless motor.  If you ran out of gas in your car, would you fear that you are at risk??  Of course not!!



  The advantage of installing the in-tank pump is that it is securely fastened in place, by your mounting flange.  It won't move, shift, unadjust, of anything else that would cause it to not work when desired.

If you've got gas in the tank, when you flip the switch, it will transfer fuel.  It will work EVERY time.  It will not blow up, nor will it be harmed to run dry once in awhile.  (I wouldn't run it dry ALL the time.  It wasn't meant, nor designed to always run dry 100% of the time).  But, don't you think the Automobile manufacturers KNEW people would run out of gas occasionally!!

And, the fact is, I have NEVER EVER seen a car fire, that was caused by the fuel pump.  Overheated engines. Yes! Electrical fires.  Yes! Debri trapped under the car, touching the exhaust. Yes! Lots of car fires.  But, NONE due to having a properly installed, properly functioning in-tank pump.



  As I also stated; because I have a GEO engine, and it comes from the factory with fuel injection, I need a high pressure fuel pump.  The GEO Company installs in-tank pumps in it's cars.  That's why I have installed an in-tank pump in my fuel tank.  I have had the engine running a long time ago.  Works like a champ.  No problems.



  Best wishes in your decision, Mark, but I, personally, wouldn't sweat it over an in-tank pump.  I mean, after all, can a half of a BILLION cars be that unsafe??



  This is just MY opinion.  I am not arguing with ANYONE!!!  If you have a differing view, that's okay.  I speak of my experience and opinion.  Take it for what it's worth, maybe not much.



Dudley

MkIIICX

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

At 12:08 AM 5/18/2008, Dudley wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    Running it dry once in awhile can't hurt it.  It is just a little 

 brushless motor.  If you ran out of gas in your car, would you fear that 

 you are at risk??  Of course not!!


	


It depends on the pump, maybe.  My Fiero has an in-tank pump, and running 

it dry WILL fry the pump (the plastic components will MELT).  Maybe not the 

first time, but for sure the second or third time, Fiero owners know to 

avoid letting the tank get less than 1/4 full (and it's a royal PITA to 

replace, ask me how I know!).  The pump design relies on fuel to cool it 

during normal operation.



 	  Quote: 	
		  And, the fact is, I have NEVER EVER seen a car fire, that was caused by 

the fuel pump...


	


True, fire or explosion inside a properly closed gas tank is almost 

impossible; the concentration of fuel vapor inside the tank means there 

isn't enough oxygen available for ignition.



Still, if I was installing a fuel pump for inflight transfer, I'd use a 

Mikuni pulse pump outside the tank... simple, reliable, self priming, and safe



-Dana



--

  The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Hi Mike... 

 

  Honestly I'm not Â that worried about a fire caused by the pump..

  I'm more concernedÂ with the pump failing due to repeated wareÂ 

  from runningÂ it dry on previous flights...Â 

  

 

  Either Â pump will do the job for me..... I just wanted this to beÂ 

  a KISS operation... Wanted something simple I can toss in theÂ 

  back seatÂ and attache to a fuel line when I need a little more range..

  

 

  Thanks again..

  

 

  Mark

  

 

  

 

 --

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

re:  Note: The pumps above do not feature an anti-siphoning valve and fuel will flow through them in event of pump failure.



This is not a warning; it is a good thing.  On a gravity feed carbureted engine an electric boost pump is not necessary.  However, they are often installed as an emergency backup.  If the boost and engine-driven fuel pumps are installed in series, you don't want the electric pump to block fuel flow if it fails.  If it fails, you want it to allow fuel to get to the engine-driven pump.



If installed in parallel, you would have to include a one-way check valve in the installation.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

HI David 

 

  I'm not against an in tank pumps, I like the idea...

  But it would mean I would have to build the tank..

  I'm looking to use an off the shelf fuel can and

  simply create a system I can transfer fuel fromÂ 

  it to the Main tank safely..

  

 

  With the suggestions iveÂ Â read I now have an ideaÂ 

  what I'm going to try...

  

 

  Guys Â Thanks for all the Brain Storming..Â 

  

 

  Mark

  

 --

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?

Mark,

I have been using my aux tanks for over 300hrs with no problems at all.  My KXP doesn't have a lot of room.  I found two 2 1/2 gal plastic gas jugs that would fit behind the seat.  I put a top tap through the cap of each tank with a fuel hose and screen long enough to lay on the bottom of the jug like on an RC airplane.  I teed the lines together and mounted a facet fuel pump to the left tank.  My mount is crude, but has held up well.  I bolted the pump to a  small square of 1/8" aluminum plate and used velcro to mount the plate to the tank.  I used bayonet disconnects on the pump wires.  The output from this pump connects to another fitting in the cap to my main tank with a quick disconnect.  I mounted an on/off switch in a handy location.  The whole thing can be taken out of the plane in less than a minute and packed to the gas station for filling.  I have used this feature several times when cruising around.  Land in a nearby field, yank out the tanks, walk to the gas station, fill up and walk back.  I can post some pictures if you would like. It would be even easier to make up a five gallon size like you want (more room to mount the pump).

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

George Myers

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: San Marcos, Texas

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Tansfer pump Ideas?

I would certainly appreciate some pictures.

Thanks

George



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