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Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Hello Dave,

   

  Just my own point of view...    

   

  !st  The XL is a low wing,   pump operated fuel system.  If we use the size of pump(s) the correct diameter for the hoses as specidfied in the plan etc.  the flow should be correct. 

  With the Jabiru (and the Rotax 912, we even have The mechanic fuel pump from the engine as an extra from the electric pump in the plans.   Better if we use an electric pump in the outlet of each wing tank.

   

  2nd.  I think that to test the flow with  the highest flight angle  is intended for the gravity flow gasoline systems  (high wings and/or header tank) where a gasoline pump (electric or mechanic) is not used...

   

  Probably I am wrong.

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower.

  do not  archive.



DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" 



I am to the point in my final assembly where I would like to demonstrate the useable fuel quantity and fuel flow checks. Per the FAA guidelines, they suggest "5 degrees above the highest anticipated climb angle." I e-mailed ZAC for their suggested angle at which to perform this test. I got back a disappointing catch-22 like non-answer. They said the highest angle I am likely to see is the power on stall angle. "Which you will have to find in your flight testing." That was the entire answer, not even a suggestion considering that I cannot do one before the other. Thanks for nothing. 



Does anybody who is flying an XL with a Jabiru 3300 have any insight on an appropriate angle to use for this         [quote][b]

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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Why not for a pump system too. Just because it's being pumped doesn't mean it'll automatically work at a given angle, most likely if the pump has fuel it'll pump it up that incline no problem, but how about if putting the plane at different angles for some reason starves the pump of fuel?



[quote="ggower_99(at)yahoo.com"]Hello Dave,

   

  Just my own point of view...    

   

  !st  The XL is a low wing,   pump operated fuel system.  If we use the size of pump(s) the correct diameter for the hoses as specidfied in the plan etc.  the flow should be correct. 

  With the Jabiru (and the Rotax 912, we even have The mechanic fuel pump from the engine as an extra from the electric pump in the plans.   Better if we use an electric pump in the outlet of each wing tank.

   

  2nd.  I think that to test the flow with  the highest flight angle  is intended for the gravity flow gasoline systems  (high wings and/or header tank) where a gasoline pump (electric or mechanic) is not used...

   

  Probably I am wrong.

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower.

  do not  archive.



DaveG601XL <david> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" 



I am to the point in my final assembly where I would like to demonstrate the useable fuel quantity and fuel flow checks. Per the FAA guidelines, they suggest "5 degrees above the highest anticipated climb angle." I e-mailed ZAC for their suggested angle at which to perform this test. I got back a disappointing catch-22 like non-answer. They said the highest angle I am likely to see is the power on stall angle. "Which you will have to find in your flight testing." That was the entire answer, not even a suggestion considering that I cannot do one before the other. Thanks for nothing. 



Does anybody who is flying an XL with a Jabiru 3300 have any insight on an appropriate angle to use for this          	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

I'll have to agree with Gary that that particular issue in the FAA circular is talking about gravity feed systems. 



I was looking at my wing and tank position after this thread was originally posted and I don't see how you could test it on the ground to 5 degrees over the max nose up angle you would experience in flight. Even at 90° unless the tank was very low on fuel the fuel port would still be getting fuel.



Now, I'm not saying that there is no way that the fuel system could become unprimed at some fuel level/angle but I just can't see a way to ground test for it. I'll tie down the tail at some point pre-first flight and run the engine but unless it just happens to dislodge something I'll be real surprised. I'm certainly not going to jack the plane up into some extreme angle and run the engine. That would just be asking for an accident.



The much safer way will be during the test flights and then it will be put in all sorts of positions with all different levels of fuel to see what it does take to un-prime the system if it can be done at all inside the flight envelope of the aircraft. I'm leaning towards the idea that to do it you would be so close to being out of gas that the tank was going to be try soon anyway.



This is one of the reasons we have 40 hours of phase 1 testing. You have to have something to do during that time.

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Why not for a pump system too. Just because it's being pumped doesn't mean it'll automatically work at a given angle, most likely if the pump has fuel it'll pump it up that incline no problem, but how about if putting the plane at different angles for some reason starves the pump of fuel?

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_________________
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601XL Under Construction
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Now, I'm not saying that there is no way that the fuel system could become unprimed at some fuel level/angle but I just can't see a way to ground test for it.



Set the wheels on car ramps, then you can tilt it back further (ie. more ground clearance). Then disconnect the fuel line at the engine and try the pumps. At least you'll know it's getting fuel right up to the carb. Hopefully the carb can handle the angle.



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  I'll have to agree with Gary that that particular issue in the FAA circular is talking about gravity feed systems. 



I was looking at my wing and tank position after this thread was originally posted and I don't see how you could test it on the ground to 5 degrees over the max nose up angle you would experience in flight. Even at 90° unless the tank was very low on fuel the fuel port would still be getting fuel.



Now, I'm not saying that there is no way that the fuel system could become unprimed at some fuel level/angle but I just can't see a way to ground test for it. I'll tie down the tail at some point pre-first flight and run the engine but unless it just happens to dislodge something I'll be real surprised. I'm certainly not going to jack the plane up into some extreme angle and run the engine. That would just be asking for an accident.



The much safer way will be during the test flights and then it will be put in all sorts of positions with all different levels of fuel to see what it does take to un-prime the system if it can be done at all inside the flight envelope of the aircraft. I'm leaning towards the idea that to do it you would be so close to being out of gas that the tank was going to be try soon anyway.



This is one of the reasons we have 40 hours of phase 1 testing. You have to have something to do during that time.

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Why not for a pump system too. Just because it's being pumped doesn't mean it'll automatically work at a given angle, most likely if the pump has fuel it'll pump it up that incline no problem, but how about if putting the plane at different angles for some reason starves the pump of fuel?

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Al Hays

Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Gore, VA

Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Would it be necessary to actually run the engine in performing this  

ground test for fuel flow?  It would be much safer to divert the fuel  

line into a suitable container and check for fuel flow at different  

angles and fuel levels without the prop turning.  One would have to  

be sure to safeguard against accidentally energizing the starter when  

testing electric pumps.  An inexpensive manual pump could substitute  

for an engine's mechanical pump for purposes of the ground test if  

necessary.



Al Hays, 601XL , N5892H Reserved

Do not archive



On May 28, 2008, at 4:52 PM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Now, I'm not saying that there is no way that the fuel system could  

 become unprimed at some fuel level/angle but I just can't see a way  

 to ground test for it.



 Set the wheels on car ramps, then you can tilt it back further (ie.  

 more ground clearance).

 Gig Giacona wrote:

> I'll have to agree with Gary that that particular issue in the FAA  

> circular is talking about gravity feed systems.

>

> I was looking at my wing and tank position after this thread was  

> originally posted and I don't see how you could test it on the  

> ground to 5 degrees over the max nose up angle you would  

> experience in flight. Even at 90° unless the tank was very low on  

> fuel the fuel port would still be getting fuel.

>

> Now, I'm not saying that there is no way that the fuel system  

> could become unprimed at some fuel level/angle but I just can't  

> see a way to ground test for it. I'll tie down the tail at some  

> point pre-first flight and run the engine but unless it just  

> happens to dislodge something I'll be real surprised. I'm  

> certainly not going to jack the plane up into some extreme angle  

> and run the engine. That would just be asking for an accident.

>

> The much safer way will be during the test flights and then it  

> will be put in all sorts of positions with all different levels of  

> fuel to see what it does take to un-prime the system if it can be  

> done at all inside the flight envelope of the aircraft. I'm  

> leaning towards the idea that to do it you would be so close to  

> being out of gas that the tank was going to be try soon anyway.

>

> This is one of the reasons we have 40 hours of phase 1 testing.  

> You have to have something to do during that time.

>

> ashontz wrote:

>> Why not for a pump system too. Just because it's being pumped  

>> doesn't mean it'll automatically work at a given angle, most  

>> likely if the pump has fuel it'll pump it up that incline no  

>> problem, but how about if putting the plane at different angles  

>> for some reason starves the pump of fuel?

>

 --------

 Andy Shontz



 do not archive



 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185270#185270

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

You can feel free to put your plane up on auto ramps and then tilt it down further in the back. I'm not going to do it with mine.



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  

Set the wheels on car ramps, then you can tilt it back further (ie. more ground clearance). Then disconnect the fuel line at the engine and try the pumps. At least you'll know it's getting fuel right up to the carb. Hopefully the carb can handle the angle.

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601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Actually that is exactly what AC90-89A suggests.



They suggest a ramp not Auto ramps for nose wheel and digging a hole to drop a tail wheel in.  But let's keep one thing in mind about AC90-89A. It was written to cover every type of EX-AB aircraft out there including clean sheet, never flown before aircraft. The fact that our planes are coming from kits and/or well tested planes reduces some of the issues that face us. 



I've gone through the AC and have thought about my test plan. On this issue I think the best thing is to test it at the max angle that can be achieved by lowering the  tail and limit the initial climb to that angle. 



During first flight I am going to climb to 5K AGL and test for slow flight. I will be doing this over the airport. During that slow flight I will be extending the envelope for aircraft angle so I will have further data there.



And this is to everyone. If you haven't read through AC90-89A I suggest you do. There seems to be several folks that the first flight was just once around the field and that isn't what the AC suggests. 

 	  Al Hays wrote: 	
		  Would it be necessary to actually run the engine in performing this  

ground test for fuel flow?

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DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Good information, thanks.



I will be doing a fuel flow test via the electronic fuel pump, through the mechanical pump (motor not running) for a flow and min fuel level test per the advisory circular.  I do not plan on running it this way.  Due to high CHT's, I cannot run at high power very long so I don't think I will get to the true minimum fuel level where the engines stops running before I overtemp it.



Thanks,

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David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?)

Part of testing the fuel system is demonstrating that the system can deliver

much more fuel than the engine needs. Which you can't do by simple running

the engine. That is why a ground run at maximum angle into a calibrated

container is hard to avoid. You will be using gravity in a high-wing and the

boost pump in a low wing. True you won't be testing the capacity of the

engine's fuel pump but you will be testing the flow rate of all the plumbing

end-to-end. Obviously you will also the system as a hole during ground runs

and flight testing.



-- Craig

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