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Ethanol?
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f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Ethanol?

What are you folks doing with the two strokes where no unblended fuel is available? Are you burning it anyway?  

   

Frank Miles  

K-III w/ 582  

     

  Checked by AVG.

 5/25/2008 6:49 PM

     [quote][b]

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

Hi Frank, here in MN the boating, snowmobile and classic car groups lobbied and got Premium (91 oct.) exempted from ethanol, you might check with petroleum distributors in your area there many be non ethanol fuel availble.

Good luck.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Ethanol?

No such luck here. Oregon, Washington, Idaho, all of the fuels are now laced

with ethanol. I was under the impression that Washington was to make some

fuel available without but if it is, no one wants to carry it! If anyone is

burning ethanol, what has been your experience?



Frank

K-III W/582



--

Donroutledge(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Ethanol?

Have you all read anything on Swift Enterprises? They have developed an  avgas that replaces 100ll at half the price. I don't know how to put their link  on here so just Google Swift enterprises and check it out. There was an  interview on AvWeb today that was pretty impressive. Don

  

  In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:09:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank  Miles"    <f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>



No such luck here. Oregon,    Washington, Idaho, all of the fuels are now laced

with ethanol. I was under    the impression that Washington was to make some

fuel available without but    if it is, no one wants to carry it! If anyone is

burning ethanol, what has    been your experience?



Frank

K-III W/582



-----Original    Message-----

From:    owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com]    On Behalf Of Mnflyer

Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:19 PM

To:    kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Ethanol?



-->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mnflyer" <gbsb2002(at)yahoo.com>



Hi    Frank, here in MN the boating, snowmobile and classic car groups    lobbied

and got Premium (91 oct.) exempted from ethanol, you might check    with

petroleum distributors in your area there many be non ethanol fuel    availble.

Good luck.



--------

GB    

MNFlyer





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185440#185440





Checked    by AVG. 

7:27  he  es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

Eggstaf(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: Ethanol?

We have one place that has ethanol free gas here in Hawaii but it's only 89  octane. I haven't tried it in my Rotax but my classic cars and street rods make  it home now without quitting. I did had a low fuel sensor melt because of  ethanol. Fortunately my Vixen was on the ground when it went or all my fuel  would have been in the belly! Beware!!!



Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

 	  Quote: 	
		  What are you folks doing with the two strokes where no unblended fuel is available? Are you burning it anyway? 



Frank Miles 

K-III w/ 582 	




Frank, First off I am not an ethanol supporter.  That being said I personally burn over 1000 gallons annually in my 582 alone in my Kitfox. Plus many other planes and 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines and I use ethanol gas. In Canada we have been mandated to get ethanol in all gas except a few brands of Premium gas.  

There is no use in spending more money on premium that I have found. I have used gas 6 months old or older in my Kitfox with no issues.  I have used ethanol gas with NO issues.   I keep hearing about all these nasty things with ethanol gas like crabs corroding, engines screwing up and fiberglass tanks melting . I have has NO ISSUES with any of this  SO FAR. 

I fly usually under 5000 ASL and occasionaly to 10,000 asl  an NO ISSUES. 



If anyone has had negative effects of ethanol gas please speak up. Once again I am not an Ethanol gas but I have had no issues with it yet. 

If my tanks start to leak from ethanol or any other way I will definaly buy some neww ones here   http://wingtanks.com/.  They Look like they are perfect.  I was thinking of adding a pair of them to increase capacity but I think I will wait till winter or a wing revcovery.

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: Ethanol?

Far from Ethanol.  Far from gas.  Very clean though.  This is the fuel James Bond’s jet pack runs on.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donroutledge(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:00 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Ethanol?  

  

  

     

Have you all read anything on Swift Enterprises? They have developed an avgas that replaces 100ll at half the price. I don't know how to put their link on here so just Google Swift enterprises and check it out. There was an interview on AvWeb today that was pretty impressive. Don  

    

   

      

In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:09:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net writes:  

  

  

       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Ethanol?

At 02:04 AM 5/30/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  If anyone has had negative effects of ethanol gas please speak up.


	


         Last week I met an ultralight pilot who, in the last year, 

had the liner of his fiberglass tank melt which cause sufficient 

2-stroke engine interior coating to cause the engine to seize. (His 

words.) The tank liner was a rubbery substance I have not seen 

before. The pilot attributed the tank liner meltdown to alcohol in 

the fuel, but had done no rigorous testing. He since switched to a 

polyethylene tank and has had not further problems. It's all 

anecdotal, none of it's proven, but you asked. . .

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Last week I met an ultralight pilot who, in the last year, 

had the liner of his fiberglass tank melt which cause sufficient 

2-stroke engine interior coating to cause the engine to seize. (His 

words.) The tank liner was a rubbery substance I have not seen 

before. The pilot attributed the tank liner meltdown to alcohol in 

the fuel, but had done no rigorous testing. He since switched to a 

polyethylene tank and has had not further problems. It's all 

anecdotal, none of it's proven, but you asked. . . 

Guy Buchanan 	




Guy,  thanks for thats info.  Likely candidate the   "sloshing "   perhaps  ?



I have no sloshing in mine . 



Great to hear real life stories.  thanks

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

My tanks are from different time periods, the right one from 95, the left one from about 3 years ago.  Now before I get to far into this, my aircraft has flown on alki for quit some time now. I fly every day 360 a year, with exceptions of bad weather. So that means winter gas has the alki for me.  I'm in Washington state so now it means alki year round.  



Anyway, my right tank inside has the white coating in the tank, there hasn't been any trouble at all, now let me add that when I fill my tanks, with an offroad tank.  The hose has rubbed off the white stuff in spots,  still the tank is holding up.  The left tank, has no coating inside, straight from skystar, was told at the time I didn't need to do anything with the tank, just install.  I put auto fuel injection line in place of all rubber hoses.  I check my tanks all the time, and once in a while I will get a couple spots of water, but other than that none.  I also pull the carb bowls on every oil change, again all is well, no water.



right now the only objection I have is a slightly higher burn rate and a bunch of muck under the aircraft from the exhaust.



Engine 912 ul  80

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

 	  Quote: 	
		  right now the only objection I have is a slightly higher burn rate and a bunch of muck under the aircraft from the exhaust 	


Yup less power from ethanol Mike. you need more throttle for same power and  speed. how much? I not sure but  I would guess it would be about the same as the % age of ethanol   

eg.  10& ethanol might use 10% more fuel.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Ethanol?

Hi Dave:  

   

Just to add a word in here.    

   

Our engines don't require high octane fuel but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.  While I dispute as to whether or not the ethanol itself is clean fuel one thing is for sure the occasional tank of ethanol laced fuel will clean the scuppers out of your engine (muck on the bottom) and reduce the need for decarbonising.  All that with probably slightly lower EGTs.  Also because the ethanol has an RON of 116 and your engine will probably run smoother, I would expect that in a way, would help increase the power you get out of it.   I’d expect maybe a 5% reduction in power (at) WOT if that much.  That is however not without cost.  Your fuel consumption will be anywhere from 7 – 10% higher so plan on that for those long trips.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Our engines don't require high octane fuel but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. 	




Rotax 447/503/532/582   912 UL  can run fine on reg gas assuming it not over a few months old. gas will lose a bit of octane over time as well if you pre mix it it can lose a bit more.  These are NOT high compression or high performance engines the way we are set up to run them.  My current 582 in my Kitfox has over 460 hours on it in last 23 months running 98% reg gas a few time av gas,marine gas(who know what is was) Engine has Never been apart. Changed plugs 3 times now. Just put in 4th set a few weeks ago. Working well but my disclaimer is that it is on borrowed time and could fly apart at anytime even as soon as my next flight.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: Ethanol?

Dave:  

   

I have no doubt you are intentionally pushing the envelope a bit.  I also have no doubt that you wouldn’t try a take off if you weren’t sure you’d clear the trees.  I’ve seen certified engines that have gone as long as 4000 hr “On condition” and were still running strong.  They wouldn’t be allowed in trainers or commercial planes but for the guy who zipped out early in the morning to get breakfast at the “secret gullies” it was perfect.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Ethanol?

Dave 

 

I used  to have a Challenger with an aluminum tank and before I found out that ethanol/methanol wasn't suitable for the engine I added methanol to every tank during winter (same as I did for my Snow machine!). Ignorance can be bliss? 

 

The thing is I never had a problem (nor icing) in over 450 hrs which included one complete re-build at 350 hrs (engine was found to be in great condition with no piston slap and crank wear almost undetectable.) 

 

That being said,  methanol is a great solvent for epoxy resin and I'm sure would have similar effects on polyester resin over a period of time - I think the real danger is in Tank damage and the resultant dissolved resin and glass fibers that would end up in the gas.  

 

I think that careful monitoring of the tanks and filters would make sense if using high alcohol content gas. 

 

Re High Octane  Auto gas - you are right about that also - unfortunately with the low octane gas (87 - 89) the restrictions on accuracy of octane are pretty open to interpretation and when you go into high test,  the governing bodies ensure that the octane levels are accurate. 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. [quote][b]

kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: Ethanol?

Hi all,

This is perfect timing for this issue.  Since I began flying my kitfox last fall I have 

used nothing but 100LL w/TCP.  About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 gals of 92oct 

premium auto fuel from the local station.  I flew the airplane about 45 mins with no 

noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal.  The 

airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty brown slurry 

when I sumped the tanks.  It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces.  When I took the 

fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my fingers, 

sure enough it was sticky....resin?  I think so.  I drained my tanks and will refill with 

100LL tomorrow.  I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of resin?  My 

tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.



Looks like Avgas for me.  

Kevin C

Series 6-7

Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL

Czech floats

Laingsburg MI





 	  Quote:

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Ethanol?

What brand of fuel was it?  Clint

[quote] From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?

 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0400

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: K&MCozik <kcozik(at)cablespeed.com>

 Hi all,

 This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall I have 

 used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 gals of 92oct 

 premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with no 

 noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal. The 

 airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty brown slurry 

 when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I took the 

 fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my fingers, 

 sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will refill with 

 100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of resin? My 

 tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.

 Looks like Avgas for me. 

 Kevin C

 Series 6-7

 Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL

 Czech floats

 Laingsburg MI

 >

 &g============

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Ethanol?

Clint,

It was supplied by a company called Scotland oil company.  They supply gas to 

BP/Amoco, Marathon and a few local independents which is were I bought my supply.

Kevin C

Rotax 914

Series 6-7

Czech floats

Laingsburg Michigan



On Mon Jun  2 11:30 , Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com> sent:



 	  Quote: 	
		  





What brand of fuel was it?  Clint



> From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com

> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?

> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0400

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Hi all,

> This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall 

I have 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 

gals of 92oct 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with 

no 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal. 

The 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty 

brown slurry 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I 

took the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my 

fingers, 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will 

refill with 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > 100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of 

resin? My 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.

> 

> Looks like Avgas for me. 

> Kevin C

> Series 6-7

> Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL

> Czech floats

> Laingsburg MI

> 

> 

> 

> 

> >

> &g============

> 

> 

>

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Ethanol?

That is very interesting.  I use auto fuel all the time in my 912ULS.  I only use Hi Test Chevron.  Am careful at not using anything else except 100 LL..  Do you know if it was the tank or reaction to fuel line or ??  clint



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?

 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:00:50 -0400

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: K&MCozik <kcozik(at)cablespeed.com>

 

 

 Clint,

 It was supplied by a company called Scotland oil company. They supply gas to 

 BP/Amoco, Marathon and a few local independents which is were I bought my supply.

 Kevin C

 Rotax 914

 Series 6-7

 Czech floats

 Laingsburg Michigan

 

 On Mon Jun 2 11:30 , Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com> sent:

 

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >What brand of fuel was it?  Clint

 >

 >> From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com

 >> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >> Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?

 >> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0400

 >> 

 >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: K&MCozik <kcozik(at)cablespeed.com>

 >> 

 >> 

 >> Hi all,

 >> This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall 

 I have 

 >> used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 

 gals of 92oct 

 >> premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with 

 no 

 >> noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal. 

 The 

 >> airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty 

 brown slurry 

 >> when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I 

 took the 

 >> fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my 

 fingers, 

 >> sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will 

 refill with 

 >> 100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of 

 resin? My 

 >> tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.

 >> 

 >> Looks like Avgas for me. 

 >> Kevin C

 >> Series 6-7

 >> Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL

 >> Czech floats

 >> Laingsburg MI

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> >

 >> &g============

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >

 >

 >

&==============
	


 	  Quote:

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol?

 	  Quote: 	
		  About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 gals of 92oct 

premium auto fuel from the local station. 	




Kevin, if you still have that 92 oct fuel on hand could you test it for alcohol and let us know for sure if it does contain it?



I have been using 92 oct auto fuel for the past year and have had no problems.  My wing tank is from 1994 and has the white kreme sloshing inside.  I do test my fuel and have not found any alcohol.  last fill up was two days ago.  I use Chevron and 76.  I am in Ellensburg WA.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

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