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jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: STalled

The other day i was landing on the missouri river here in SD to fish and 

had never pulled the flap handle all the way up when taking off.

Fortunately i had plenty of room but on a 80 degree day with thin air 

the left wing stalled and i nearly wrecked had i not aborted the landing.

How does one know what "full flaps" are on the model IV and where is the 

full flap setting?

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: STalled

At 08:40 AM 6/2/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  How does one know what "full flaps" are on the model IV and where is 

the full flap setting?


	


I set mine so maximum flap just allows full aileron travel both ways. 

With this setting I've never had a premature stall.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

I put a stop on my flap handle at 20 degrees.  I used an angle finder on the flaperon to find the 20 degree setting.



Edited: I think my answer is not what you were asking.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Stalled

I carried out some flap tests a few years ago and gradually increased the flap setting on approach from nil to full to see effects. 

 

At full flap setting ie) handle up as far as it would go I didn't have any problems with a premature stall but found that when I touched down I couldn't get the tail top come down and I bounced along on the main gear a few times with the tail high in the air. The aileron movement was a bit restricted with the flaps full down. 

 

Is their any chance that with full flaps you lifted off early and then stalled the wing once you were out of ground effect? 

 

I have used full flaps on floats and wheels Take off and landing with no real problems however when I am landing I lift the flaps just before touch down on a short field approach - serves two purposes as it gives you better elevator authority once you lift the flaps and it also dumps lift so that you can land really short. 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

03/06/2008 01:24 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 STalled 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net>

 

 The other day i was landing on the missouri river here in SD to fish and 

 had never pulled the flap handle all the way up when taking off.

 Fortunately i had plenty of room but on a 80 degree day with thin air 

 the left wing stalled and i nearly wrecked had i not aborted the landing.

 How does one know what "full flaps" are on the model IV and where is the 

 full flap setting?

 

 

 

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

I also.



[/quote]

I set mine so maximum flap just allows full aileron travel both ways. 

With this setting I've never had a premature stall.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.[/quote]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

At this point I'm going to have to disagree that the flap angle is what caused you to stall.  I've taken off with full flaps and done correctly the airplane sort of just shoots up in the air and feels like it's level.  You have to resist the urge to pull back on the stick, just let it lift off on its own, you might even have to push forward on the stick. the key here is NOT to lift off with a bunch of up angle on the wings, that will stall you.  If you are in a float plane and want to get off sooner, you will need to cross control and lift one of the floats out of the water as well as keeping in ground effect until air speed allows for lifting off.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

Jared,

If the left wing stalled the pilot induced that stall not the flaps .



For the record mine go full down 33 degrees and they work awesome for takeoffs.  For landing over 20 degree is of no gain and you will lose some aileron control. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  How does one know what "full flaps" are on the model IV and where is the 

full flap setting?

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: STalled

Another thing that could have caused the left wing to stall is improper

washout built into the wing and or it is out of rig

--

jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: STalled

At this point i am leaning towards the fact that originally skystar 

apparently had a sticker for flaperon handle that indicated an upper limit.

Full up on handle is just too far on a take off.

But a comment in one of the responses about the flaperons being "out of 

rig" made me wonder.

If a flaperon is out of rig, wouldnt the plane drift or have a tendancy 

to tip if they were not set evenly?

How about the twist of the wing?



Comments welcome.



LarryM wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I also.



	


I set mine so maximum flap just allows full aileron travel both ways. 

With this setting I've never had a premature stall.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.[/quote]





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185973#185973



  




[/quote]

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: STalled

The construction manual details the procedure for rigging proper 

flaperon travel.  I have seen quite a few Kitfoxes that were not set 

per the instructions or were done by other seat-of-the-pants methods. 

You should get the instructions out and set them properly.



After I started flying mine I ended up making several adjustments to 

the lift strut rod ends to get the wing twist right, independent of 

the flaperon rigging.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  At this point i am leaning towards the fact that originally skystar 

apparently had a sticker for flaperon handle that indicated an upper 

limit.

Full up on handle is just too far on a take off.

But a comment in one of the responses about the flaperons being "out 

of rig" made me wonder.

If a flaperon is out of rig, wouldnt the plane drift or have a 

tendancy to tip if they were not set evenly?

How about the twist of the wing?

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		  Full up on handle is just too far on a take off. 	




Says who?   I can show you a full flap take off anytime that will get your weight from gear/floats to wings quicker that without full flaps.  Mine go 33 Degrees down , some I understand set a limit to only 20 degrees down.  The extra few degrees will make a huge difference.  ASk any bushpilot or other experienced pilot he will tell you the same thing. 

You wing stalled from too high of an angle off attack, sure there is the small amounts thast can be added up from washout, flapperon rigging etc but  correct me please ,  who stalled the airplane ?   The pilot or the airpane ?   PIC is in charge ? 



Dave

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: STalled

Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check my radio/intercom with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read about the Kitfox flaps on this list, I thought I should try it. My flaps are adjusted to move only 10 degrees. I never use them because I don't see the point and I don't really like the feeling of it; it pulls the nose downward without really adding much drag. I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips on final.

Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		  Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on 	




Yep !! I sideslip with 20 degrees down. That is the most i use for landing.

Remeber I have a model 4 which is an entire different control system that the Models 1,2 and 3 . They we not nearly as useful as the IV model. 

Dave

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  jareds(at)verizon.net wrote: 	
		  The other day i was landing on the missouri river here in SD to fish and 

had never pulled the flap handle all the way up when taking off.

Fortunately i had plenty of room but on a 80 degree day with thin air 

the left wing stalled and i nearly wrecked had i not aborted the landing.

How does one know what "full flaps" are on the model IV and where is the 

full flap setting? 	




Jareds,

Here is a link that contains so good information on the theory and proceedures to rigging the Model 4 flaperons.



http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=main&category=Text/Articles

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: STalled

Michel,

I would pull about 30% flaps (not sure what that was in degrees) on my 4 and

do forward slips on final with no problems.



Lloyd C

Model 5 912

Northern Mi



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: STalled

I am, Michel. I've done it with 10 and 20° (my plane's limit) of  

flaps, but usually use only 10° if landing crosswind...I like a bit  

more aileron availability in a crosswind. Did you maybe slip away  

from the wind? I have to think my slip through before I do it, and  

sometimes find myself putting the wrong wing down...quickly  

corrected, of course. But then, mine is a Model IV, not 3.



Lynn

Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 w/520+ hrs.



On Jun 7, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check  

 my radio/intercom with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read  

 about the Kitfox flaps on this list, I thought I should try it. My  

 flaps are adjusted to move only 10 degrees. I never use them  

 because I don't see the point and I don't really like the feeling  

 of it; it pulls the nose downward without really adding much drag.  

 I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips on final.

 Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ...  

 oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want  

 to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">



 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>



 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: STalled

From my experience, the most important aspect of rigging is to have  

a digital inclinometer (level) or Smart Level, and those wooden  

blocks that clamp around the flaperons. Then read and follow the  

directions in the builder's manual. If you can't get the exact angles  

called for....26° on the right side, and 32° on the left side,  

according to my manual...they (Skystar via phone call way back when)  

said to split the difference, that is, 27 and 31 for example, with  

the 15049 bellcrank at 11.4 degrees from bottom of aircraft. This was  

changed to 10 degrees in the later-published manual.

What limits my flap deflection is the length of the slot in the  

console (I had to lengthen it a bit), and 20° is plenty of flap for  

me and considered maximum for the Model IV, I read somewhere.



Lynn

Kitfox IV Speedster w/2200 Jabiru w 520+ hrs



On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:58 AM, jareds wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At this point i am leaning towards the fact that originally skystar  

 apparently had a sticker for flaperon handle that indicated an  

 upper limit.

 Full up on handle is just too far on a take off.

 But a comment in one of the responses about the flaperons being  

 "out of rig" made me wonder.

 If a flaperon is out of rig, wouldnt the plane drift or have a  

 tendancy to tip if they were not set evenly?

 How about the twist of the wing?



 Comments welcome.



 LarryM wrote:



> 

>

> I also.

>

> 	


> I set mine so maximum flap just allows full aileron travel both  

> ways. With this setting I've never had a premature stall.

> Guy Buchanan

> San Diego, CA

> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.[/ 

> quote]

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185973#185973

>

>




[/quote]

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 Did you maybe slip away from the wind?


	


.. Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: STalled

I always did the same thing...right pedal, and stick to the left,  

until my instructor and I were on our dual x-country, and I did just  

that, but the wind was from the right, and he grabbed the stick and  

went right stick (right aileron down) and left pedal, explaining  

"always put the wing down on the windy side." We had always slipped  

with right pedal, left wing down, because it just happened that the  

wind was always from the left when we needed to slip, and I got it  

into my head that that was always the way to do a slip. But it turns  

out that you have to figure where the wind is coming from before  

deciding which way to slip. Better teach your wife the old saying:  

"he who does not fly in crosswinds, does not fly often."  (but don't  

let it get into a family feud)

I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind  

direction has the last say.

Lynn

On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> Did you maybe slip away from the wind?

 ... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either  

 slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and  

 push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of  

 the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of  

 course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in  

 crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! 

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 Do not archive

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind  

 direction has the last say.


	


Oh but I agree, Lynn! I also side slip always with the wing low in the wind, if it comes from the side. The R pedal, L aileron is only when the wind is in the axis of the runway. Incidentally my wife sends her regards and say that I am not allowed to listen to other men! 

Seriously, I wonder why I felt that strange feeling that my tail was stalling with the flaps on. There wasn't much turbulence that day but, sometimes, there is a bump on final as we fly over a row of trees. Could have been just a coincidence. Still, I'll try again but this time at high altitude.

I couldn't fly today and probably not tomorrow either. The reason is silly: The nearby CTR tower we need to call before take-off has one operator sick and because of that, they don't allow any GA flying. The operator has a hard job: about 20 commercial arrival/departure in 16 hours ... what a stress! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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