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george.mueller(at)aurora.
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 Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours [quote][b]
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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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George
Do you simply leave the brackets exposed, or do you remove them and change the nose skin to eliminate the slots?
I am closing up my right wing now and had the intention of not putting the slats on at all and going straight to the VGs initially
I changed my mind at the last minute and riveted the brackets on and cut the slots.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.mueller(at)aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:04 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours [quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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Chuck Chappell
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701 builder (three weeks) so I don’t find any info in the archive’s about the vortex generators and removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a direction to get some education about this?
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.mueller(at)aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:04 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours 0123456789
[quote][b]
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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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You should find it in the original zenith list. This 701801 is a break away list but subscribing to both gets you information on 601 etc.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Chappell
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:13 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Test flying a 701
This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701 builder (three weeks) so I don’t find any info in the archive’s about the vortex generators and removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a direction to get some education about this?
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.mueller(at)aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:04 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours | Quote: | | - The Zenith701801-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List |
0123456789
0 [quote][b]
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Test flying a 701 |
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Check the Original Zenith list above the 601 list, a search there will provide lots of ideas and opinions. Also check Stolespeed.com and
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/slats-vs-vg-design.html
The consensus of those who have don it, is that it does not reduce the STOL ability of the airplane, but gains some fuel economy and lets the airplane land more conventionally.
Kevin
[quote="Chuck Chappell"]This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701 builder (three weeks) so I don’t find any info in the archive’s about the vortex generators and removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a direction to get some education about this?
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.mueller(at)aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:04 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours 0123456789
| | - The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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Charles, this is kind of a hot button issue with some
of us builders. For the "Pro" side of the story,
check out stolspeed.com. But for the "Nay" story,
talk to Chris Heintz, the designer. He has a
statement about this on the Zenithair website.
Chris has said that it is OK if you really want to go
without slats (but with VGs) but you will loose some
STOL performance. One builder recently posted a
measured experiment on the list and he figured he lost
about 60 feet of take off performance by going
slatless(with VGs). I forget what the actual numbers
were but lets face it, 60 ft difference is pretty much
nothing and could have been explained away by a slight
gust or some other environmental effect.
As has been said here, you can pick up about 10mph of
cruise speed on the top end. Or you can cruise the
same speed with less power (less gas). So far so good
right?
Where we haven't heard of a head to head comparison is
the "L" protion of the STOL equation. The drag that
everyone is trying so hard to eliminate it part of
what makes the 701 land so short. We have heard from
pilots that claim that the 701 lands far more
conventionally with the VGs than with the slats. Some
pilots might like this but it was not the intention of
the designer for the 701 to land like a 150. The 701
is not supposed to float on landing. It is supposed
to stop very short.
| Quote: | From what I have heard on this list and the old main
Zenith list, nobody has taken the VGs off and put the
|
slats back on(on a 701 at least). That sould tell you
something. Just be aware that there is no free lunch.
There are trade offs either way you go.
Personally, I'm going with the slats. I don't plan on
ever installing the VGs on the wings. On the tail, I
almost for sure will try them. But my plane will
likely always have the slats installed. I hopefully
have presented you with a balanced opinion on this
subject as I am biased towards slats.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Working on Flapperons
--- Charles Chappell <chuck456(at)pacbell.net> wrote:
| Quote: | This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701
builder (three weeks) so
I don't find any info in the archive's about the
vortex generators and
removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a
direction to get some
education about this?
|
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jswanson(at)jamadots.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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[quote] ---
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Chuck Chappell
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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Thanks for the replies, I will get both sides of the story, but my tendency
is to stay with the designers recommendations. Mostly because I don't have
the education or experience to stray very far and feel safe.
Charles Chappell
--
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Test flying a 701 |
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I don't have a flying airplane yet, but my gut feeling is that your correct about the short landing with slats. Heck they may even make for shorter take offs. But the reality is that I will never need the extremes of the 701 capabilities. I know, never say never. But who are we kidding, If I've got 50 feet and trees, I better be contemplating dieing on a desert isle, way before trying to take off there. So if it makes for a more conventional feel thats good. But a lot of replys from flying VG guys don't support this. Who knows, till you try it. The Zenith link is good, because it lets you try it, with out worrying(too much) about engineering issues.
Kevin
do not archive
| dougsnash wrote: | Charles, this is kind of a hot button issue with some
of us builders. For the "Pro" side of the story,
check out stolspeed.com. But for the "Nay" story,
talk to Chris Heintz, the designer. He has a
statement about this on the Zenithair website.
Chris has said that it is OK if you really want to go
without slats (but with VGs) but you will loose some
STOL performance. One builder recently posted a
measured experiment on the list and he figured he lost
about 60 feet of take off performance by going
slatless(with VGs). I forget what the actual numbers
were but lets face it, 60 ft difference is pretty much
nothing and could have been explained away by a slight
gust or some other environmental effect.
As has been said here, you can pick up about 10mph of
cruise speed on the top end. Or you can cruise the
same speed with less power (less gas). So far so good
right?
Where we haven't heard of a head to head comparison is
the "L" protion of the STOL equation. The drag that
everyone is trying so hard to eliminate it part of
what makes the 701 land so short. We have heard from
pilots that claim that the 701 lands far more
conventionally with the VGs than with the slats. Some
pilots might like this but it was not the intention of
the designer for the 701 to land like a 150. The 701
is not supposed to float on landing. It is supposed
to stop very short.
| Quote: | From what I have heard on this list and the old main
Zenith list, nobody has taken the VGs off and put the
|
slats back on(on a 701 at least). That sould tell you
something. Just be aware that there is no free lunch.
There are trade offs either way you go.
Personally, I'm going with the slats. I don't plan on
ever installing the VGs on the wings. On the tail, I
almost for sure will try them. But my plane will
likely always have the slats installed. I hopefully
have presented you with a balanced opinion on this
subject as I am biased towards slats.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Working on Flapperons
--- Charles Chappell <chuck456> wrote:
| Quote: | This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701
builder (three weeks) so
I don't find any info in the archive's about the
vortex generators and
removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a
direction to get some
education about this?
|
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List |
|
_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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Tommy Walker
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Test flying a 701 |
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To add to George’s excellent list.
Another thing you might want to try:
When taxi testing on the runway or on a clear taxi way, get the speed up enough to raise the nose wheel. You can do that at a little less than 30 mph. then try taxiing down the runway with the nose wheel off the ground, controlling the direction with rudder. My buddy could taxi the full mile of the runway where we doing our first flight with the nose wheel off the ground. He is better at landing the 701 pilot than me too. I could get the nose wheel up but the awkward rudder pedals gave me trouble.
It’s sort of like the tail wheel pilot who can taxi with the tail wheel off the ground. Takes practice….
Good luck,
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N8701
60+ Hours
Building 701 #2 as we speak.
[quote][b]
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_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL |
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n85ae
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Test flying a 701 |
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I have never flow a 701, however from test flying my Kitfox here's
some food for thought.
I bought a brand new IO-240B from Teledyne Continental. A fully
certificated proven design. I installed it, and meticulously went over
everything the engine ran flawlessly and I did a full suite of ground
runs, etc. Triple checked all the settings, etc.
On my fourth test flight the engine driven fuel pump failed, and boost
pump on it still refused to run. I was 4 miles out from the airport at
3000 feet, and luck was with me and I made the airport. I landed to
be met by a half dozen fire trucks as I declared an emergency and
the field is towered and the tower controller called out all the services
for me.
Anyway, the only thing that went wrong was that it was new equipment
and sometimes despite the best of everything new stuff sometimes
fails ... So be ready for that.
Ever since then I always fly within range of emergency landing sites
(fields, etc.) and I adjust my course as I fly to make sure I can land
somewhere if I need to.
Before that flight I always knew it could happen, but didn't really think
it would, but .. It did.
If I ever do another series of test flights, I'm going to do about 10-20
hours of it a few thousand feet above airport and not plan on going
anywhere outside of gliding range of the airport just to be safe.
Regards,
Jeff
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Test flying a 701 |
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Jeff,
Glad to hear that it worked out safely, and thanks for the good advise. I'll be keeping close for awhile. Well eventually, when I get to that point!
Tommy,
Thats a good one, it gives you more ground test time and helps your technique as well! Did anyone at the airport complain about it?
Kevin
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_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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n85ae
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403
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Tommy Walker
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Test flying a 701 |
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Naw, we did our taxi testing early in the morning and late in the evening. It was a non-towered airport....
Do Not Archive
Tommy
| kmccune wrote: | Jeff,
Tommy,
Thats a good one, it gives you more ground test time and helps your technique as well! Did anyone at the airport complain about it?
Kevin |
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_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL |
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