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Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

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chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Tim,

 EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use. 

Charlie Kuss

PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it.

snipped

 	  Quote: 	
		   In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not 

 alcohol was present.  Within the last month, pumps started sporting a 

 placard that said "may contain up to 10% or less ethanol". Which means 

 we have to test for it.  This is problematic for me.  If I test regular 

snipped

tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with the hand fate deals us.  Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant materials.  That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there.   So far I have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks.  It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak.  Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket.

   

 If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.

  

 Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?  Hear-say is all I've heard so far.  

  

 Tracy  (going flying come what may)

 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com (chaskuss(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com (chaskuss(at)yahoo.com)>

 

Tim,

 EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use.

 Charlie Kuss

PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it.

snipped

[quote] In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not

 alcohol was present.  Within the last month, pumps started sporting a

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

btemplin(at)templinelectr
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

There is another problem most people don't think about with ethanol.  They use it as the octane booster in the fuel, so if you have any water in the tanks, it bonds with the water and pulls it out of  solution. Now you have fuel that has a MUCH lower octane rating than it did before.  It might be OK if you're using it on a low compression o-320, but the high compression is not as tolerant.  I've had this problem in my Grumman when I accidentally got some  with ethanol and had a little water in one tank.  Glad I had 100LL in the other to switch to, 'cause it was not too happy with it at take off/climb power!

 Brad

  From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Tracy Crook

 Sent: Thu 6/5/2008 2:39 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

  Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with the hand fate deals us.  Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol tolerant materials.  That's the route I went and except for the open question about Proseal and alcohol, I think  I'm there.   So far I have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks.  It (or possibly just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to leak.  Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on without gasket.

 If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.

 Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?  Hear-say is all I've heard so far.  

 Tracy  (going flying come what may)

 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com (chaskuss(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> RV-List message posted by: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com (chaskuss(at)yahoo.com)>

 Tim,

  EAA recently sent me an email stating that they were offering ethanol test kits for $15 including USPS Priority Mail shipping. Contact the EAA by phone or email. I purchased one of these test kits. It's simple and easy to use.

 Charlie Kuss

 PS I try to avoid ethanol in my car, too. I get more than a 3% decrease in MPG with it.

 snipped

 > In Florida, pumps with alcohol were required to post whether or not

 > alcohol was present.  Within the last month, pumps started sporting a

  	  Quote: 	

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

nics.com

.matronics.com/contribution

 [b]

rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

I called the company on my can of Pro-Seal (Flamemaster?)and was told alcohol, auto fuel, JetA, and 100LL is a non issue. 

 

 

Scott

RV-8a

 



 ---

Dale Ensing

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Another option to Proseal (polysulfide) is  fluorosilicone sealant. I used Dow Corning 730 solvent resistant sealant on my  wing inspection plates and fuel gauge sender plates. It has held up well on the  aircraft over four years and the test sample ( two aluminum pieces bonded  together submerged in 100LL for eight years) still looks good. The  resistance to methanol is 0.7 % volume swell with -3 points change in  durometer hardness.

 Dale 

 [quote]    

      Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and    alcohol?  Hear-say is all I've heard so far.  

    

   Tracy  (going flying come what  may)



[b]

_________________
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC

smittysrv

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 67

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Looking to the future... I have finished my wings and prosealed everything

in the tanks. If we are eventually faced with the ethanol mix in the gas,

what things need to change in the construction of the fuselage and engine

to handle it? I have just started working on my fuselage.



Smitty

http://SmittysRV.com

Original Message:

-----------------

From: scott bilinski rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com

Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:45:33 -0700 (PDT)

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

I called the company on my can of Pro-Seal (Flamemaster?)and was told

alcohol, auto fuel, JetA, and 100LL is a non issue.



 Scott

RV-8a





---

_________________
Smittys RV-9A
SmittysRV.com

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Tracy Crook wrote:

snip

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and alcohol?  

 Hear-say is all I've heard so far. 

The only 'real' info I have is from my Grumman Gang ...... the AA-5Xs 
	


use proseal in the wet wing much like the RVs.  They do leak over time, 

and in repairing a leaking wing they noticed that the proseal was 'soft' 

.... which is good when you're trying to clean the old proseal to fix a 

leak ..... but not a good thing for the whole tank at once.  The owner 

had used mogas ...... with alcohol as it turned out .....

A definitive point?  No, but that's enough info for me.  The next time 

somebody mixes up a batch of proseal, put a dab in some denatured 

alcohol and let us know what happens.  Pure alcohol would be worse on 

the proseal than rubbing alcohol, I think.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Tracy  (going flying come what may)

JFLEISC(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

In a message dated 6/5/2008 2:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Not that I am in favor of the Ethanol boondoggle but we have to live with    the hand fate deals us.  Why not retrofit fuel systems with alcohol    tolerant materials.  That's the route I went and except for the open    question about Proseal and alcohol, I think I'm there.   So far I    have noticed no deterioration of Proseal in the tanks.  It (or possibly    just time) did make my cork gaskets for fuel sender bulkheads start to    leak.  Never liked them anyway so I prosealed the bulkheads on    without gasket.

    

   If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed    by ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it or    add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.

    

   Does anyone have a link to info on Proseal (polysulfide) and    alcohol?  Hear-say is all I've heard so far.  

    

	


 

 I've been using premium auto fuel w/alcohol for about 5+ years in my -4. My  0-360 likes it better than avgas (in both winter and summer). Less fouling and  little to no buildup on the exhaust valves. It has been deteriorating the  Proseal in the tanks though. Tough call since my left tank was never built right  in the first place (bad leaks). Signs of possible leakage on the right. I  noticed that on the PPG site the data sheet on the most common Proseal (I forget  the number. what 'Spruce sells) has no mention of alcohol resistance. Their  Proseal #PS-890 series, however, specifically states 'excellent resistance  to....alcohol...). That is what I'll be trying as I reseal my tanks. Will  probably not know if it works for another 5 years or so.

  

 Jim



Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

timb

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Frankston, Texas

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Hi Charlie,



Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel supply with a baby

bottle with some water in it to a line on the side.  Is this an affective

way to do it?



Tim Bryan

RV-6 Flying

N616TB almost 100 hours now



[quote] --

_________________
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TB

Dale Ensing

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

That's the way we did it before the kits were introduced. I used an olive 

jar with line drawn on side with a Sharpe. You just need to be able to see 

if the "water line" has risen after adding the fuel. The ethanol in the fuel 

will mix with the water increasing its volume.

Dale Ensing



---

_________________
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Hi Tracy-



How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and what effect

does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?



Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of alcohol in the

fuel on tite-seal?  



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com>



 If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed

by
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it

or
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.



 Tracy  (going flying come what may)

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Tim,

 As Dale mentioned earlier, you want to note if the volume of the water increases after adding the gasoline. The method you describe should work. The "kit" is basically a plastic test tube with graduations on it to show the percent of ethanol (if any) in the fuel. Any graduated, tall, thin container would work.

Charlie

--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim Bryan <n616tb(at)btsapps.com> wrote:



[quote] From: Tim Bryan <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>

 Subject: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:57 AM

 

 <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>

 

 Hi Charlie,

 

 Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel

 supply with a baby

 bottle with some water in it to a line on the side.  Is

 this an affective

 way to do it?

 

 Tim Bryan

 RV-6 Flying

 N616TB almost 100 hours now

 

 > --

smittysrv

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 67

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

I read somewhere that you mark a line on a tall test tube (or any other

kind of tube) at the lower end, at the 25% point of the total capacity of

the test tube. Then put water in the test tube up to that mark. Then fill

the rest of the tube with mogas. Shake the tube vigirously and let it sit

for a few minutes. Then go back and see if the water rises above the 25%

mark.



Smitty



Original Message:

-----------------

From: Charles Kuss chaskuss(at)yahoo.com

Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:35:15 -0700 (PDT)

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?




Tim,

 As Dale mentioned earlier, you want to note if the volume of the water

increases after adding the gasoline. The method you describe should work.

The "kit" is basically a plastic test tube with graduations on it to show

the percent of ethanol (if any) in the fuel. Any graduated, tall, thin

container would work.

Charlie

--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim Bryan <n616tb(at)btsapps.com> wrote:



[quote] From: Tim Bryan <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>

 Subject: RE: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:57 AM

 

 <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>

 

 Hi Charlie,

 

 Many here at the airpark have been testing the local fuel

 supply with a baby

 bottle with some water in it to a line on the side.  Is

 this an affective

 way to do it?

 

 Tim Bryan

 RV-6 Flying

 N616TB almost 100 hours now

 

 > --

_________________
Smittys RV-9A
SmittysRV.com

tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and this solution is no longer prone to freezing.   The gas line antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically acetone.   You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see how much to add to your gas.

   

 I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank sealants are.  It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was once (but no longer)  used in Van's tanks.

  

 Tracy

 On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)>

 

Hi Tracy-



How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and what effect

does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?



Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of alcohol in the

 fuel on tite-seal?



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com (tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com)>

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water absorbed

by
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas without it

or
	


[quote] add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

Data point: Flamemaster now offers a pour able sealant (not polysulfide 

but compatible with it) that is rated to be resistant to all current 

fuel additives, including alcohol. If anyone needs the p/n, let me know 

& I'll look in the fridge in the hangar to get it for you.



Charlie



Tracy Crook wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which 

 separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and 

 this solution is no longer prone to freezing.   The gas line 

 antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically 

 acetone.   You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see 

 how much to add to your gas.

  

 I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank 

 sealants are.  It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was 

 once (but no longer)  used in Van's tanks.

  

 Tracy



 On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek 

 <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>> wrote:



     

     <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>>



     Hi Tracy-



     How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and

     what effect

     does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?



     Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of

     alcohol in the

     fuel on tite-seal?



     glen matejcek

     aerobubba(at)earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>

     > From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com

     <mailto:tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com>>

     >

     > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water

     absorbed

     by

     > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas

     without it

     or

     > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.

pcowper(at)webtv.net (Pet
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

The reluctance to approve motor vehicle gasoline may be concerns for

vaporizing at higher altitudes.



When I worked for Union Oil Company back in the 1970's I questioned our

Commercial Sales Engineer from the Brea Research Center about using

aviation gasoline from the airport in a friend's Late Model Sportsman

stock car's Chevy 350 engine.



He said it would work fine, however it could be hard to start when cold

due to having fewer "light ends" (such as butane, propane, pentane)

which provide easy cold weather starting.  These are seasonally blended

out in summer months to prevent vapor lock when cold starting is not a

problem and higher BTUs from heavier distillation cuts (down towards

diesel) provide better mileage for summer vacations.



Having been out of the oil industry since 1984, I have no idea what

ethanol does to the high altitude performance.



Pete Cowper

RV-8 #81139 (working on top of fuselage now)

Visalia, California

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

First of all, ethanol with water in it burns just fine. Try lighting a 

little brandy or rum and you will see what I mean. Drinking alcohol is 

only 40 to 50 percent ethanol, the rest water and flavor.  What is put 

in gasoline is 99.94 percent ethanol, no moisture. Ethanol does not 

phase separate unless you get it nearly saturated with water, AND you 

have very cold temps. You will never have fuel line freezing with mogas 

that has ethanol. Just as good as the HEET and other gas dry products.

The aromatics in mogas and ethanol are hard on some brands and vintage 

of Proseal and will turn it to goo.

They also tend to dry out and harden old fuel system O rings and such.

Tracy Crook wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My understanding is that acetone causes the water & alcohol which 

 separates out of the gasoline to once again go back into solution and 

 this solution is no longer prone to freezing.   The gas line 

 antifreeze stuff found in northern autoparts stores is basically 

 acetone.   You might refer to the directions on those bottles to see 

 how much to add to your gas.

 I have no idea what the ramifications for Proseal and other tank 

 sealants are.  It is definitly a no-go with sloshing compound that was 

 once (but no longer)  used in Van's tanks.

 Tracy

 On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:10 AM, glen matejcek 

 <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>> wrote:

     <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>>

     Hi Tracy-

     How does acetone in the fuel keep the water from freezing, and

     what effect

     does it's presence have on things like seals and pro-seal?

     Likewise, does anyone have any insights into the effects of

     alcohol in the

     fuel on tite-seal?

     glen matejcek

     aerobubba(at)earthlink.net <mailto:aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>

     > From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com

     <mailto:tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com>>

     >

     > If I think I might fly in conditions that might freeze the water

     absorbed

     by

     > ethanol (a very rare occasion) I either verify that I use gas

     without it

     or

     > add some acetone to eliminate freezing problem.

     *

     *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Testing for Ethanol in Mogas was Say What?

During the summer RVP is tightly controlled, especially where ethanol 

must be added. The federal reformulated standard requires summer RVP of 

7.6. I think winter is generally 9.0, except extreme cold areas where it 

can go to 14.0.  Adding ethanol raises the base stock RVP by about 1.0.  

Some hot areas like Aridzona control it further to 7.0 for summer. By 

comparison, avgas is 7.0



Pete Cowper wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The reluctance to approve motor vehicle gasoline may be concerns for

 vaporizing at higher altitudes.



 When I worked for Union Oil Company back in the 1970's I questioned our

 Commercial Sales Engineer from the Brea Research Center about using

 aviation gasoline from the airport in a friend's Late Model Sportsman

 stock car's Chevy 350 engine.



 He said it would work fine, however it could be hard to start when cold

 due to having fewer "light ends" (such as butane, propane, pentane)

 which provide easy cold weather starting.  These are seasonally blended

 out in summer months to prevent vapor lock when cold starting is not a

 problem and higher BTUs from heavier distillation cuts (down towards

 diesel) provide better mileage for summer vacations.



 Having been out of the oil industry since 1984, I have no idea what

 ethanol does to the high altitude performance.



 Pete Cowper

 RV-8 #81139 (working on top of fuselage now)

 Visalia, California

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

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