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mode c veil

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jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: mode c veil

b. States: Operations within a Mode C veil and within and above Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet MSL.

NOTE-

A Mode C veil is that airspace within a 30 NM radius of a Class B  airspace

primary airport from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL excluding the Class B

airspace itself.

I read it as referencing two separate conditions. The mode C veil

reference applies to my question. It further goes on to describe the mode C veil.

See note above. I don't believe it means the area in question is only the

mode C veil above class C airspace, because class C airspace doesn't have a 30

MN class C veil. Therefore it has to be referencing two separate conditions.

The note defines Mode C veil as surface to 10,000 MSL. This is where we  fly.



Notwithstanding, this is for general aviation. My question specifically said part 103 ultralights, which was ignored. I re-posted my question for clarification. I will let you know in two months when they get back to me

again.

John Murr



John

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Mode c Veil

I guess I need to make a phone call or write a letter and get written permission to fly in the Philly Mode C Veil and carry it with me at all times when I'm inside the veil.



Does any one have an address and/or phone number handy for Philly?  Thanks.

John Murr

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: mode c veil

You "GUESS" wrong....If all we had to do was get a "NOTE" from somebody ( Who told you that ???) anyway...That would be the CHEAP way and we ALL would do that......



  Lose the Electric start and you can fly all you want in the "MODE C"



       Gotta Fly...

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: mode c veil

Subject: Re: Re: mode c veil

[quote] >>>You "GUESS" wrong....If all we had to do was get a "NOTE" from somebody

 ( Who told you that ???) anyway...That would be the    >>>CHEAP way and we 

 ALL would do that......

 Reply from the FAA:



      Dear Mr. Murr:



      First, please accept our apologies on the lateness of this 

 response --  we understand that it is terrible overdue.



      I hope that this answer will still be able to help you.



      A pilot can not do this without approval of the affected AT 

 manager('s)



      Please visit this web page for more information: 

 http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/FAC/Ch5/s0504.html



      If you need any other assistance, please do not hesitate to write 

 back.



      Thank you, and again our apologies for the lateness.

 ---

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: mode c veil

John --



I still see the "AND" in the statement, meaning both sides of the "and" must

be met for it to qualify.



  -- Robert



do not archive



On 2/28/06, John Murr <jdm(at)wideworld.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 b. States: Operations within a Mode C veil and within and above Class C

 airspace up to 10,000 feet MSL.



 NOTE-

 A Mode C veil is that airspace within a 30 NM radius of a Class

 B  airspace

 primary airport from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL excluding the Class B

 airspace itself.



 I read it as referencing two separate conditions. The mode C veil

 reference applies to my question. It further goes on to describe the mode

 C veil.

 See note above. I don't believe it means the area in question is only the

 mode C veil above class C airspace, because class C airspace doesn't have

 a 30

 MN class C veil. Therefore it has to be referencing two separate

 conditions.

 The note defines Mode C veil as surface to 10,000 MSL. This is where

 we  fly.



 Notwithstanding, this is for general aviation. My question specifically

 said part 103 ultralights, which was ignored. I re-posted my question for

 clarification. I will let you know in two months when they get back to me

 again.



 John Murr

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: mode c veil

John Murr,



I see from one of your other posts that you are a fairly low time pilot and not fully trained in the FAR's, yet.   



Just some quick information to clear up your dilemma. 



If you are flying an aircraft with an "N number" on it, then the following section of FAR 91 applies to your operation.

§ 91.215   ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.



(Reads in part):



(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).



(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C–112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies—



(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;



(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;



(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—



(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and



(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and



(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and



(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—



(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and



(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.



If you are flying a vehicle that meets the requirements of FAR 103, then the following sections applies to your operation:



§ 103.17   Operations in certain airspace.



No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.



§ 103.20   Flight restrictions in the proximity of certain areas designated by notice to airmen.



No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in areas designated in a Notice to Airmen under §91.137, §91.138, §91.141, §91.143 or §91.145 of this chapter, unless authorized by:



(a) Air Traffic Control (ATC); or



(b) A Flight Standards Certificate of Waiver or Authorization issued for the demonstration or event. 



As you can gather from this info, whether you have an electric starter on your legal Part 103 ultralight or not does not matter. Since the 30 mile circle we call the Mode C Veil is not mentioned or referenced in Part 103, there are no restrictions to operation in it by an ultralight. You  can operate within that 30 mile circle and below the Class B airspace as long as you remain legal with the other parts of FAR 103.

That should answer your question. But if it hasn't, here is the short answer:

There is no Mode C Veil that applies to an ultralight.   

no not archive

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: mode c veil

Perfect!  Thanks you!

---

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: mode c veil

In a message dated 3/1/2006 1:57:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

kolbrapilot2(at)comcast.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   As you can gather from this info, whether you have an electric starter on 

 your legal Part 103 ultralight or not does not matter. Since the 30 mile 

 circle we call the Mode C Veil is not mentioned or referenced in Part 103, there 

 are no restrictions to operation in it by an ultralight. You  can operate 

 within that 30 mile circle and below the Class B airspace as long as you remain 

 legal with the other parts of FAR 103.

 

 

 That should answer your question. But if it hasn't, here is the short 

 answer:

 There is no Mode C Veil that applies to an ultralight.   

 

 

 no not archive

 

 --------

 John Williamson

 Arlington, TX

 


	


John, All



That is the same answer that I got from the local FAA here in Orlando

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: mode c veil

I liked the loophole revelation:  "not originally certificated with

an electrical system".   I could power an AM radio station with

my suzuki electric but wasn't certificated as such.  VOILA!



My runway is 6 miles from the threshold of a class C nearby which

I've been flying since 1972.  No problems yet. ( I stay low)

I have no desire for gadgets, knobs, bells & whistles,

just want to fly.

I suspect it didn't hurt that my neighbor was an FAA inspector there

for 20 years.

-BB  do not archive

On 1, Mar 2006, at 8:49 AM, N27SB(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In a message dated 3/1/2006 1:57:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,

 kolbrapilot2(at)comcast.net writes:



> As you can gather from this info, whether you have an electric 

> starter on

> your legal Part 103 ultralight or not does not matter. Since the 30 

> mile

> circle we call the Mode C Veil is not mentioned or referenced in Part 

> 103, there

> are no restrictions to operation in it by an ultralight. You  can 

> operate

> within that 30 mile circle and below the Class B airspace as long as 

> you remain

> legal with the other parts of FAR 103.

> That should answer your question. But if it hasn't, here is the short

> answer:

> There is no Mode C Veil that applies to an ultralight.  

> no not archive

>

> --------

> John Williamson

> Arlington, TX

>



 John, All



 That is the same answer that I got from the local FAA here in Orlando

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: mode c veil

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Terminology ?
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   Examiner/ inspector/  some kinda honcho anyway.


	


BB  do not archive

 	  Quote:

WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: mode c veil

I just a reminder why the mode c veil was enacted by the FAA.  I guess  the 

FAA didn't want airliners to keep bumping into small aircrafts.

 

14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation

Accident occurred Sunday, August 31,  1986 in CERRITOS, CA

Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/7/1988

Aircraft:  PIPER PA-28-181, registration: N4891F

Injuries: 82 Fatal, 8 Minor.  

The Safety Board's full report on this investigation is provided as Aviation  

Accident Report number AAR-87/07. To obtain a copy of this report, or to view 

 the executive summary online, please see the Web site at  

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm 

AT APRX 1140 PDT, A PIPER  PA-28, N4891F, DEPARTED TORRANCE, CA ON A VFR FLT 

TO BIG BEAR, CA. AFTER  TAKEOFF, THE PLT TURNED EASTBOUND TWD THE PARADISE 

VORTAC WITH HIS X-PONDER  SQUAWKING 1200. AT THAT TIME, AEROMEXICO FLT 498 (DC-8, 

MEX REGISTRY XA-JED) WAS  ON ARRIIVAL, RCVG NORTHBOUND VECTORS FM LAX APCH 

CTL (AR-1 CTLR) FOR AN ILS APCH  TO THE LAX INTL ARPT. AT 1151:04, THE CTLR 

ASKED FLT 498 TO RDC SPD TO 190 KTS  & DSCND FM 7000' TO 6000'. DRG THIS TIME, THE 

CTLR WAS CTLG OTR TRAFFIC  & PROVIDING RADAR ADVISORIES, BUT DIDN'T SEE A 

DISPLAY FOR N4891F ON HIS  SCOPE. AT 1152:09, N4891F & FLT 498 CONVERGED & 

COLLIDED AT APRX 6560',  THEN FELL TO THE GND. AN INV REVEALED N4891F HAD 

INADVERTENTLY ENTERED THE LAX  TERMINAL CONTROL AREA (TCA) & WASN'T IN RADIO CONTACT 

WITH ATC. LAX TRACON  WASN'T EQUIPPED WITH AN AUTO CONFLICT ALERT SYS & THE 

ANALOG BEACON RESPONSE  FM N4891F'S X-PONDER WASN'T DISPLAYED DUE TO EQUIP 

CONFIGURATION. N4891F'S PSN  WAS DISPLAYED BY AN ALPHANUMERIC TRIANGLE, BUT THE 

PRIMARY TARGET WASN'T  DISPLAYED DUE TO AN ATMOSPHERIC INVERSION.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of  

this accident as follows:RADAR,APPROACH/DEPARTURE..INADEQUATE

PROCEDURE  INADEQUATE..FAA(OTHER/ORGANIZATION)

Contributing Factors  

IDENTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT ON RADAR..NOT  ATTAINED

PROCEDURES/DIRECTIVES..NOT FOLLOWED..PILOT IN  COMMAND

UNSAFE/HAZARDOUS CONDITION..INADVERTENT..PILOT IN COMMAND

VISUAL  LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT IN COMMAND

VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT OF  OTHER AIRCRAFT

do not archive

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: mode c veil

Airliners bumping into small aircraft shouldn't be a problem in positive 

control airspace, but is often a problem in non-positive control 

terminal environments.

I learned over the years that a lot of jet pilots are apparently 

incapable of an approach if required to maintain at or above 7,000' AGL 

until base leg, (whine, whine, whine) and a lot of controllers are 

apparently incapable of working high performance airplanes three 

dimensionally, so they dump them to the MVA ASAP while they are inbound.

Sometimes referred to as "Trolling for Cherokees."

Which is semi-forbidden in non-positive controlled airspace, but it is 

FAA's little secret, and what the small aircraft users don't know, they 

won't gripe about.

See if you can pull up a current copy of FAA order 7110.22D - ARRIVAL 

AND DEPARTURE HANDLING OF HIGH PERFORMANCE AIRCRAFT

(Known internally as the "Keep 'Em High Program.)

Or ask your local ATC facility about it. You won't be popular.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



WillUribe(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just a reminder why the mode c veil was enacted by the FAA.  I guess  the 

 FAA didn't want airliners to keep bumping into small aircrafts.

 <snip>

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Mode c Veil

In a message dated 2/28/2006 9:04:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

jdm(at)wideworld.net writes:



to fly  in the Philly Mode C Veil 

 

Hi John Murr,

 

What airport do you fly out of to be near Philly?

 

I live in Audubon, NJ which is just east across the river from Philly, PA,  

but I hangar and fly from Alloway Airport which is 32 miles south, near Salem,  

NJ. (Southeast of Wilmington, DE)

 

Maybe close enough to get together sometime.

 

Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive

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