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Thoughts on new wingtips?

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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  To all,    I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip extensions.  Do you like the look of the increased wingspan?  Do you like the wingtips and how they flare out at the end?  Anybody planning on ordering a set?  I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport pilot builders alike.  I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group wants them more.  It's something that will really allow the sport pilots to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise.  Brian W. 	
	
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saniewskig(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

I think they look great, I am looking to build a Light  Sport and the Lightning looks to be the ticket. I hope to test fly the aircraft  soon.

 [quote]   ---

pennington(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hello Brian

  

 I like the appearance of the new wing tips. I think they look much  more sporty. I understand Nick is flight testing them.

 Preliminary reports suggest they reduce take off roll, increase climb rate,  reduce stall speed and do not reduce cruise speed. I would be interested in  their performance during accelerated stalls, but so far, everything seems very  positive. How can you lose?

  

 If final testing verifies the above, I will use them on my new  Lightning.

  

 Happy flying.

  

 Gary Pennington

  

  

  

  

  

 --

Wayne Lenox

Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Arizona in the winter

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Brian

My Lightning is in build and has the new tips.  I like the look and hope the preformance.  Nick has flown the test bed Lightning and did report on its preformance.  I live out west and will fly above 9000ft much of the time, the tips should help. 

Wayne



-- Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  To all,    I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip extensions.  Do you like the look of the increased wingspan?  Do you like the wingtips and how they flare out at the end?  Anybody planning on ordering a set?  I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport pilot builders alike.  I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group wants them more.  It's something that will really allow the sport pilots to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise.  Brian W. 	
	


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sales(at)billandruth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Hi Wayne,

 

 I have decided to install the new wing tips as well and am on the "list" to get them.  I'm curious as to how you came about getting a set at this time when they don't appear to be available generally as yet.  Do you have any info that you can share with the group?  Bill Applegate, kit #49 in Tucson, Az.

 

 Wayne Lenox wrote:

 [quote]   

Brian

 My Lightning is in build and has the new tips.  I like the look and hope the preformance.  Nick has flown the test bed Lightning and did report on its preformance.  I live out west and will fly above 9000ft much of the time, the tips should help.   

Wayne

   

 -- Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> (dashvii(at)hotmail.com) wrote:

       	  Quote: 	
		        	  Quote: 	
		  To all,    I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip extensions.  Do you like the look of the increased wingspan?  Do you like the wingtips and how they flare out at the end?  Anybody planning on ordering a set?  I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport pilot builders alike.  I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group wants them more.  It's something that will really allow the sport pilots to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise.  Brian W. 	
   	
   

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ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

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tronics.com

====================================

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selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?

 	  pennington(at)q.com wrote: 	
		  <xml><xml><endif>

 Preliminary reports suggest they reduce take off roll, increase climb rate,  reduce stall speed and do not reduce cruise speed.  

    

 -- 	




I wonÂ´t be buying the tips as they are.  It is a little hard to tell from the photos but while the actual tip profile looks good, I am not so sure that the increase in span will suit the plane so well but that is just personal preference and would need a look at the real thing to tell.



As for performance, I am not a US sport pilot so the no flap stall speed is of little concern to me and the flap stall and approach speeds seem OK.  The Lightning is never going to be a paddock aeroplane and mid 50kt approach speeds are fine for tarmac or reasonable grass strips.  



The flight effects are interesting though.  The lower stall speed, reduced takeoff roll and climb rates could be explained by the increase in wing area and span but the claim of no change in cruise is counter intuitive.  Increasing span and wing area would normally lead to increased drag at cruise speeds so it may be that the tip profile is actually doing something to airflow to lower induced drag.



If that is the case then what I would like to see is a wingtip with the new profile but without the increase in span.  That would look better than the standard tip and should capture any improvement in cruise performance attributed to the tips without   drawbacks of increased wing area on cruise performance.  Low speed handling would probably be little changed from the standard tip.

Cheers.

Rick

Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 113
Location: Colonial Beach, Virginia

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?

 From: selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au

 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:19:24 -0700

do not reduce cruise speed. 

Hmmm,

 Hold on a minute...with an higher aspect ratio(among other things) it is possible the cruise at altitude can actually INCREASE!

 Does it with the new tips?

 I don't know...we shall see!

 Rick 

 N727RB

 	  Quote: 	

 I wonÂ´t be buying the tips as they are. It is a little hard to tell from the photos but while the actual tip profile looks good, I am not so sure that the increase in span will suit the plane so well but that is just personal preference and would need a look at the real thing to tell.

 As for performance, I am not a US sport pilot so the no flap stall speed is of little concern to me and the flap stall and approach speeds seem OK. The Lightning is never going to be a paddock aeroplane and mid 50kt approach speeds are fine for tarmac or reasonable grass strips. 

 The flight effects are interesting though. The lower stall speed, reduced takeoff roll and climb rates could be explained by the increase in wing area and span but the claim of no change in cruise is counter intuitive. Increasing span and wing area would normally lead to increased drag at cruise speeds so it may be that the tip profile is actually doing something to airflow to lower induced drag.

 If that is the case then what I would like to see is a wingtip with the new profile but without the increase in span. That would look better than the standard tip and should capture any improvement in cruise performance attributed to the tips without drawbacks of increased wing area on cruise performance. Low speed handling would probably be little changed from the standard tip.

 Cheers.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186732#186732

 > =

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pennington(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hello Wayne

 You say you live out West? I live in Tucson, Arizona.

  

 Gary

 [quote]   ---

Colin K.

Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 157
Location: Oklahoma

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Interesting thought Selwyn. I would guess that the tip could reduce induced

drag by reducing the wing-tip vortices.



Does the profile of the extension remain constant from the attachment end

some way out towards the tip?



If this is the case, could part of the extension be cut from the attachment

end giving a shorter overall extension while providing the same profile at

the attachment point? Nick?



Colin K.

OK

Lightning # 52 under construction.

http://www.mykitlog.com/cojaken

--

_________________
Colin K.
OK

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Yes, but think of the thermals you could catch with the new extended wing

tips!!



(grin)



--

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?

[quote

Hmmm,

 Hold on a minute...with an higher aspect ratio(among other things) it is possible the cruise at altitude can actually INCREASE!

 Does it with the new tips?

 I don't know...we shall see!

 Rick 

 N727RB

/quote



Yep, you are quite correct.  I didnÂ´t want to get into a discussion of aerodynamics with all itÂ´s complexities and was thinking about low density altitudes.  Where I am, most flying is below 5000 and almost never above 8500 due to a combination of regulation and terrain.  At those levels a Lightning, with its wing loading, will have a low angle of attack at cruise and probably wonÂ´t gain much simply from the increased area supplied by the tips.

Cheers.

jhausch

Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 35

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?

I think they look good, but I do not think I'd take the option.  Performance with standard tips appears to be more than acceptable.



It would be neat to see the standard "short" tips with the upswept feature and maybe integrated areas for the nav lights.  However, that's what I'd call a "low-priority-want".

Wayne Lenox

Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Arizona in the winter

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Gary 

My airport is AZ05.  Gila Bend AZ.  I will not be there until November with N123WL.  Hope to finish build by end of June.  My wife and I are in Shelbyville,TN for summer and it is very HOT. 

Wayne



-- "GARY PENNINGTON" <pennington(at)q.com> wrote:

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hello Wayne

 You say you live out West? I live in Tucson, Arizona.

  

 Gary

 [quote] ---

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Selwyn basically pointed out the reasoning.  With a very low cruise altitude it probably wouldn't do much, but an extra foot or so on the end of the wing will not add too much drag.  If the upswept does anything it will help not only to counteract any loss of performance due to drag, but also act as if it were an even longer span wing.  I am encouraged by no perceived loss of roll.  If you want to see an example of a wing that was made longer and increased cruise speed just go to the Smithsonian.  Howard Hughes racer had two sets of wings.  The clipped set was for low altitude straight line speed and the longer wings were for cross country cruise performance.  The decrease in wing loading helps with fuel consumption as well.  Brian W.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?

 From: selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au

 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:33:55 -0700

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Lightning-List message posted by: "selwyn" <selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au>

 [quote

 Hmmm,

 Hold on a minute...with an higher aspect ratio(among other things) it is possible the cruise at altitude can actually INCREASE!

 Does it with the new tips?

 I don't know...we shall see!

 Rick 

 N727RB

 /quote

 Yep, you are quite correct. I didnÂ´t want to get into a discussion of aerodynamics with all itÂ´s complexities and was thinking about low density altitudes. Where I am, most flying is below 5000 and almost never above 8500 due to a combination of regulation and terrain. At those levels a Lightning, with its wing loading, will have a low angle of attack at cruise and probably wonÂ´t gain much simply from the increased area supplied by the tips.

 Cheers.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186749#186749

&g============

[quote] 

Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live™ Messenger. Invite friends now!   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

pennington(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hello Wayne

  

 I know what you mean about hot. As you know, Tucson, (and Gila Bend), are  hot too. 

  

 I have flown over to Gila Bend a couple times. Very little air traffic  from Tucson.

  

 My kit will ship by the end of June. I've got a long way to go. 

  

 Have fun with the build. I look forward to seeing photos.

  

 Gary

 [quote]   ---

landonp(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: Thoughts on new wingtips?

Hi Brian

  

 They definitely improve looks, but before I  order I need to know more about? e.g  attachment - Is it as per original ?  With extra wing loading will that be sufficient (if the same)? Additional weight  ? What are key benefits or detriments ? Pricing ? Can I trade non  fitted ,originals in? Does strobe kit fit these ?

  

 Regards

 BK

 [quote]   ---

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