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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: STalled

Yes with no difficulties at all other than maintaining a good slip with my small rudder.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8C8E1.0A56B2F0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

--

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  Lynn Matteson wrote: 	
		  I always did the same thing...right pedal, and stick to the left,  

until my instructor and I were on our dual x-country, and I did just  

that, but the wind was from the right, and he grabbed the stick and  

went right stick (right aileron down) and left pedal, explaining  

"always put the wing down on the windy side." We had always slipped  

with right pedal, left wing down, because it just happened that the  

wind was always from the left when we needed to slip, and I got it  

into my head that that was always the way to do a slip. But it turns  

out that you have to figure where the wind is coming from before  

deciding which way to slip. Better teach your wife the old saying:  

"he who does not fly in crosswinds, does not fly often."  (but don't  

let it get into a family feud)

I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind  

direction has the last say.

Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are kidding. Heck the other day I was flying with 16 to 24 gust, with that the sock was a direct cross on the approach end of the runway.  What are you going to do if you take off with calm winds and 10 minutes later it goes crazy and you have a direct wind at about 15, circle until it gets better???

Lynn

On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> Did you maybe slip away from the wind?

 ... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either  

 slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and  

 push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of  

 the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of  

 course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in  

 crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! 

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 Do not archive

 <pre>

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 forums.matronics.com

 www.matronics.com/contribution

 </pre>

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kitfoxmike [customtrans(at)qwest.net]

 Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are kidding.


	


Of course, I am kidding, my wife has nothing to say about my flying. It was an intentional politically uncorrect form of humour. 

There was once I landed my model 3 and at the end of the roll, even with my feet pressing to the end the left pedal, the plane veered into the wind. The nearby ATIS gave 270 at 12 knots when I landed on runway 18. Should it blow much more crosswind (which is extremely rare where I live) I might consider landing somewhere else or, land on the grass, on the wind, between the runway and the parallel taxiway. I once asked the airfield manager if I could do that and he said that it was okay as long as there was no other planes in the circuit and that I made my intentions clear on the frequency.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: STalled

Notice to Michel:

In the post below, it appears that I (Lynn) wrote the part that says:

  "Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are  

kidding. Heck the other day I was flying with 16 to 24 gust, with  

that the sock was a direct cross on the approach end of the runway.   

What are you going to do if you take off with calm winds and 10  

minutes later it goes crazy and you have a direct wind at about 15,  

circle until it gets better???"



This part was inserted between my post and my signature, making it  

look, at least on my screen, that I made that statement, which I did  

not. While the thought may be true, I didn't post it.

Lynn



On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:53 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <customtrans(at)qwest.net>

 Lynn Matteson wrote:

> I always did the same thing...right pedal, and stick to the left,

> until my instructor and I were on our dual x-country, and I did just

> that, but the wind was from the right, and he grabbed the stick and

> went right stick (right aileron down) and left pedal, explaining

> "always put the wing down on the windy side." We had always slipped

> with right pedal, left wing down, because it just happened that the

> wind was always from the left when we needed to slip, and I got it

> into my head that that was always the way to do a slip. But it turns

> out that you have to figure where the wind is coming from before

> deciding which way to slip. Better teach your wife the old saying:

> "he who does not fly in crosswinds, does not fly often."  (but don't

> let it get into a family feud)

> I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind

> direction has the last say.

>

> Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are  

> kidding. Heck the other day I was flying with 16 to 24 gust, with  

> that the sock was a direct cross on the approach end of the  

> runway.  What are you going to do if you take off with calm winds  

> and 10 minutes later it goes crazy and you have a direct wind at  

> about 15, circle until it gets better???

> Lynn

> On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

>>> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

>>> Did you maybe slip away from the wind?

>>

>>  ... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either

>>  slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and

>>  push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of

>>  the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of

>>  course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in

>>  crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! 

>>

>>  Cheers,

>>  Michel Verheughe

>>  Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

>>  Do not archive

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>  List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

>>  forums.matronics.com

>>  www.matronics.com/contribution

>>

>>

>>

>>

>



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186744#186744

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Tom Beirne

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  Michel wrote: 	
		  

Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre> 	




Hi Michael



I heard before that the Cessna 172 should never be forward slipped with full flap (40deg) for this very reason. Full flap on the 172 is like opening the barn doors and the turbulence combined with a slip can mask the tailplane.



However in this case I am do not think that the Junkers type flaps on the Fox will generate that much turbulence and also the tailplane on the III is not really an aerofoil section, more of a flat plate really, so should not be effected as much.



It will be interesting to see if you encounter the same effects when at a high and safer altitude. My thinking is that the flaps on the Kitfox can also be used as a trimming device and work as such by changing the forward pitching moment of the wings with little drag penalty. Full flap will give a larger forward pitching moment which has to be balanced with greater downward force at the tail, ie. stick further back. At low and slow flight you would be more prone to the effects of of these pitch changes due to reduced elevator authority so it is conceivable that the bump you mentioned and the following downdraft may have reduced the lift, and pitching moment, of the wing but retained your tailplane force giving a sudden pitch up. In stable flight conditions the tail is exerting a downward force and any stalling at the tailplane should lead to nose down pitching. Let us know how you get on.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 This part was inserted between my post and my signature, making it  

 look, at least on my screen, that I made that statement, which I did  

 not. While the thought may be true, I didn't post it.


	


Don't worry, Lynn, I had sorted out who was writing what. I have to be very careful with that. You see, I work for the KGB and ... ooops, I shouldn't have written that! Where is the Erase button?



 Michel



Do not archive ... or transmit to the KGB, CIA, Mossad, STASI ... or my wife!

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: STalled

Ve haf vays uf dealing with your kind, Michel....

do not archive

On Jun 8, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> This part was inserted between my post and my signature, making it

> look, at least on my screen, that I made that statement, which I did

> not. While the thought may be true, I didn't post it.

 Don't worry, Lynn, I had sorted out who was writing what. I have to  

 be very careful with that. You see, I work for the KGB and ...  

 ooops, I shouldn't have written that! Where is the Erase button?

  Michel

 Do not archive ... or transmit to the KGB, CIA, Mossad, STASI ...  

 or my wife!

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  Tom Beirne wrote: 	
		   	  Michel wrote: 	
		  

Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre> 	




Hi Michael



I heard before that the Cessna 172 should never be forward slipped with full flap (40deg) for this very reason. Full flap on the 172 is like opening the barn doors and the turbulence combined with a slip can mask the tailplane.

	


The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to bend with the induced loads.  When you go to retract the flaps (like in a go around situation), the flap with a bent link will not retract all the way inducing a rolling moment.  This has been know to cause a few wrecks.  At least this is what my instructor / flight school owner / DE told me.  I was used to doing full flap slips in a PA-12 and the first time I tried it with a 152 we were in he about knocked me out with a quick slap to the head.  He then showed me the POH that noted not to do that.... The same held true with the 172, 180 and 185 POH that he made me read over and over before he checked me out in them.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: STalled

Leonard sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because 

the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to 

bend with the induced loads.


	


If anything, it seems like loading on the flaps would decrease as 

they are turned sideways to the slipstream.  My understanding was 

that it had to do with the way the flaps disturbed the airflow over 

the tail surfaces in that attitude causing a loss of elevator 

effectiveness.



I carried that no-slip-with-flaps-extended thinking with me when I 

started flying Piper Cherokees but, of course, Piper does not 

prohibit such a maneuver in those airplanes.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		  The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to bend with the induced loads 	




I did not know that.  I always thought it was because the airflow was disturbed over the tail from the 40 degrees of flap deflection. I have owned several Cessnas and flown 150,152,172,177,180,182 and 185. 

I have just known not to sideslip with full flap deflection.

_________________
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akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  dave wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to bend with the induced loads 	




I did not know that.  I always thought it was because the airflow was disturbed over the tail from the 40 degrees of flap deflection. I have owned several Cessnas and flown 150,152,172,177,180,182 and 185. 

I have just known not to sideslip with full flap deflection. 	


That was just what I was told about the asymmetrical flap retraction...Not to say there are not any other reasons not to do it.  I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail would only effect a Cessna though.  One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect all aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side slipped with full flaps everyday.



As far as 40 deg full flap on a 172, that would depend on the model.  The ones I have flown have varied from 30 max to 40 max, and at 40 it is one hell of an air-brake!



EDIT.... a quick google search would indicate that the Ahole who owned the flight school may have passed out some bogus info to me...  it seems that on a few of the test flights a pronounced nose down pitching was noted when side slipping with full flaps.  This was later corrected by a larger tail, but the placard and warning remained not to slip with more than 20 degrees.



google cessna flap sideslip and you will have an answer quick enough ...



This may be a good reason to only post what you have personally experienced and not what some joker (who you thought would have known) told you.

Tom Beirne

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  

That was just what I was told about the asymmetrical flap retraction...Not to say there are not any other reasons not to do it.  I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail would only effect a Cessna though.  One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect all aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side slipped with full flaps everyday.

	




I'd say it depends on the induced downwash angle and wake characteristics of the airflow behind the flaps. As you mentioned, not every 172 has the ability to put out 40deg flaps and with 30deg or less the effect was less pronounced. The placing of the wing and geometry of the tail are also factors, some empenage and/or Vertical fin masking effects in the sideslip may have contributed.



Sorry to Jareds for Hi-jacking your thread, but I think Michel started it   



I just used the 172 example to illustrate one case where full flaps may effect handling in a slip. I also mentioned that I don't think that this effect is present on the Fox. The wake characteristics of the Junkers flaps are much less pronounced than for Flowler flaps. But I am curious as whether the noted effect is still present at altitude and if so why?

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: STalled

Leonard sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail 

would only effect a Cessna though.


	


I don't think Cessna designed their airplanes with actuators that are 

too small to do the job.  Early models used mechanical flaps with a 

"Johnson bar" while newer ones use a completely different electric 

drive, yet they both have the slip-with-flaps limitation.  Cessna 

even reduced the full-flap travel on later models from 40 degrees 

down to 30 degrees.  If there was a design problem, they've had 

plenty of opportunities to fix.



 	  Quote: 	
		  One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect 

all aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side 

slipped with full flaps everyday.


	


The geometry of the two designs is quite different so the airflow 

will be quite different.  Imagine the Cessna in a side slip with 

those huge barn door flaps extended.  The nose is down a bit and the 

airplane is moving sidewise due to the slip.  The disturbed airflow 

from the flaps is striking the tail dead-on.



In a low-wing Cherokee with much smaller flaps, the disturbed airflow 

is passing below the tail surfaces to a greater extent.  Remember 

also, Cherokees use a stabilator with a much larger surface area than 

the Cessna's elevator.



There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in 

which flap extension and slips get along just fine, but it all has to 

do with the geometry of the airplane.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

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helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: STalled

Mike, 

Not all Cessnas were restricted from slipping with flaps extended.  The

C140, the C170, & 170A had no restrictions in the POH indicating that

slipping with flaps extended was a restricted maneuver.  These aircraft had

plain flaps,  The 170B had the restriction, as I recall, because of that

model came out with the Fowler flaps as did all the later aircraft.  One

that I'm not sure of is the C177, but that thing was squirrely anyway,

especially the early 150 hp versions.



John Hart

KF IV

Wilburton, OK 



--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Tom Beirne [thomasbeirne(at)eircom.net]

 Let us know how you get on.


	


Thanks for that explanation, Tom. It makes sense. Yes, I'll let you all know if it was only a coincidence or if I can reproduce it.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: STalled

John sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Not all Cessnas were restricted from slipping with flaps extended.


	


I know.  That's why I finished with:



 	  Quote: 	
		  There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in which flap

extension and slips get along just fine...


	


Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: STalled

 	  MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  Leonard sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail 

would only effect a Cessna though.



	


I don't think Cessna designed their airplanes with actuators that are 

too small to do the job.  Early models used mechanical flaps with a 

"Johnson bar" while newer ones use a completely different electric 

drive, yet they both have the slip-with-flaps limitation.  Cessna 

even reduced the full-flap travel on later models from 40 degrees 

down to 30 degrees.  If there was a design problem, they've had 

plenty of opportunities to fix.



 	  Quote: 	
		  One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect 

all aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side 

slipped with full flaps everyday.



	


The geometry of the two designs is quite different so the airflow 

will be quite different.  Imagine the Cessna in a side slip with 

those huge barn door flaps extended.  The nose is down a bit and the 

airplane is moving sidewise due to the slip.  The disturbed airflow 

from the flaps is striking the tail dead-on.



In a low-wing Cherokee with much smaller flaps, the disturbed airflow 

is passing below the tail surfaces to a greater extent.  Remember 

also, Cherokees use a stabilator with a much larger surface area than 

the Cessna's elevator.

There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in 

which flap extension and slips get along just fine, but it all has to 

do with the geometry of the airplane.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ 	


Mike I was not even thinking of low wing pipers... More of PA12, 14, 16, 18 etc, that are high wing.  I fly them all day long with full flaps and super duper side slips.  Even I am not dumb enough to try and compare a high wing to a low wing.



That is another reason that you will see a big EDIT in my post... Google came up with the answer in a quarter nano second.

steve.didier(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: STalled

The 172 POH talks to inducing flutter when slipping with full flaps.

SteveD

172N

On Jun 8, 2008, at 10:27 AM, dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because  

> the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to  

> bend with the induced loads

 I did not know that.  I always thought it was because the airflow  

 was disturbed over the tail from the 40 degrees of flap deflection.  

 I have owned several Cessnas and flown 150,152,172,177,180,182 and  

 185.

 I have just known not to sideslip with full flap deflection.

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186816#186816

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: STalled

Michel 

 

I use to fly my kitfox on Floats and I also carry some pretty heavy passengers. I use flaps on almost every take off on landing (from about 5 deg to almost full flaps on a short field) I also use combination flaps and slips and love the extra performance I get. 

 

I think it's like every stage of learning to fly - first time you do something it's a little scary and then you gradually gain confidence and it becomes a piece of cake. Not using your flaps to me is real mistake as (with practice) it greatly extends the performance envelope of the plane. 

 

I honestly know that if you practice this you will love it! 

 

Regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

07/06/2008 04:41 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 Re: STalled 

     

 

 

 

Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check my radio/intercom with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read about the Kitfox flaps on this list, I thought I should try it. My flaps are adjusted to move only 10 degrees. I never use them because I don't see the point and I don't really like the feeling of it; it pulls the nose downward without really adding much drag. I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips on final.

 Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?

 

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 

 

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 </b></font></pre></body></html> 

 [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: STalled

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com 

 I honestly know that if you practice this you will love it!


	


Perhaps, Gary. But I never felt comfortable with flaps. Even less after this last experience fetching an Atec Zephyr from the Czech Republic.

We were a bit in a hurry that Saturday evening and although the owner had little time on the plane, we decided to leave at once to stay ahead of the thunderstorms buiding up in the nearby mountains. Once in the air, he asked me: Who's going to land this plane in Germany. I said: I can do it but let me first feel the plane. I went then slow, deployed 10, 20 and 30 degrees flaps and ... didn't like the feel of the plane at all. I then said: You land your plane; I can be your auto-pilot, navigator and ATC communicator!

Yes, the Kitfox is certainly different but ... I like so much my Kitfox without flaps! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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