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Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

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n10pg(at)neo.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

What do you mean by "the two of you flyingEA81"? There are a whole bunch of

us flying Kitfoxes with EA81s. And, of course, there are a lot of other

homebuilds with EA81s.  

If you have specific questions, let me know. I have 1200 uneventful hours

behind my NSI EA81.

Peter Graichen

http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm 



--

Michael Logan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 82

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Peter,



How many hours did you have on that engine before you had it rebuilt by Ron

at RAM Performance? 



--

_________________
Mike Logan
Fredericksburg, VA

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

"The two of you. . ." was referring to the two people on that particular thread who were discussing the EA81.  I posted a question about EA81s and it turned into a discussion about Rotax.  I got a couple positive remarks but no real info.  So I just keep slipping the question in where I can.  I am trying to gather solid engine info from anyone that will talk about it, see my engine survey post from yesterday.  So, anything you have to add about whatever engine you are flying, I would love to hear about.



As to specific questions, I am trying to figure out the following about every engine I can;



GPH at cruise

cruise speed

climb speed

take off distance

general impression

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Ok here is a testimonial for Subaru.  It is a great engine. It is a little

heaver then a rotax but it is also much more reliable and cheaper.  I have a

100hp stratus conversion on a classic 4 with over 150 trouble free hours on

it now.  We did have 1 small issue caused by a 3rd party shop in the first

10 hours but stratus fixed the issue right away and we have had no issues

since.  205AK has gone from Kansas city to Oshkosh and all over Kansas

almost to Colorado and climbed to 10000 ft with no problems.  It starts on

the first bump even in the winter and with a heater core in the cabin AK was

one of the few airplanes flying all year (even night flights in January at 0

deg).  Pictures of the engine can be found on my EAA website at 

WWW.roosterville612.org on the member projects page /al and kirks Kitfox.

Best of all it sounds like an airplane engine not a lawn mower like the

rotax



  

--

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Just a point on Rotax engines being less reliable than the Sube - Not sure if this is an anecdotal response as I would like to see the supporting evidence on this one. 

 

I have just returned to Australia after about 15 yrs in N.Ontario where the engines of choice are the  Rotax 582 and Rotax 912/S engines. I had a Kitfox with 582 and flew well over 600hrs year round with temps ranging between +35 and -35 deg C. That little engine never let me down and regularly started at ridiculously low temperatures on remote frozen lakes when normal people and most 4 strokers kept their planes in the hanger!  

 

I was also not the only one out there as I was normally accompanied by a  bunch of other 2 strokers! Even the Rotax 912 would struggle and in all honesty there are almost no Subes being used up there.  Now that I'm in Australia the engine of choice is the Jabiru, closely followed by the 912S -912 and 582 engines and probably in that order. 

 

I think a lot of this boils down to support and engine population in your area - in Canada the Rotax lines are extremely well supported by the likes of Bob R. at   Light engines  and now Dave Fisher etc. For the last 2 years I had the Jabiru and admit that I struggled with support in Canada.  Although I love the engine it would have been difficult recommending it to pilots with limited mechanical aptitude as there was relatively no regional support. 

 

In Australia the Jabiru plant offers great support out of Bundaburg and many regional service centers, on that basis, the sales of engines has flourished and Rotax engines hold a  distant 2nd place to Jabiru sales. I think when you make an engine choice, especially with a homebuilt, engine population, experience and support in your region probably should take precedence over brand - provided you are comparing apples with apples! 

 

Nothing worse than having some piddling problem and nobody to ask who has first hand experience. 

 

Just my thoughts! 



 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab/2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

  

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"kirk hull" <kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

12/06/2008 12:28 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 RE: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message) 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" <kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com>

 

 Ok here is a testimonial for Subaru.  It is a great engine. It is a little

 heaver then a rotax but it is also much more reliable and cheaper.  



 Best of all it sounds like an airplane engine not a lawn mower like the

 rotax

 

 

 

 _

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 	  Quote: 	
		  Best of all it sounds like an airplane engine not a lawn mower like the 

rotax 

-- 	




Great reasoning for a choice of engine.   ?? 

I don't think mine sounds like a lawnmower? heck my lawnmower for my runways is diesel tractor  



I have flown many engines, Rotax are the choice for reliability and best hp /weight. Cost effectiveness?  JAbs are about the same pricing when all said and done.  Suberus. are very heavy but some of the higher output do have good performance but come with weight. 



Alot will depend on what you want  - ie a cruising machine solo use only or a higher performance real STOL like performance and/or float operations.   The later would be more like a Suberu or Jab. the Latter would be more suited for the higher HP /weight Rotax. 



Here is a 582 powered Rotax Kitfox IV  http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

I surely do hold bragging rights for some of the performance here on this model.  To separate the fact from fiction I would like to see the Suberu and Jabiru owners do the same. Armchair captains can type what they want but I like to see it for real.



For reference 's sake my 582 has 470  trouble free hours in the last 2 years on this engine and never been apart .  This is my 3 rd engine in this Kitfox. That being said this engine might be on borrowed time and certainly could blow up at anytime. some will tell you that they stop without notice.  That is my disclaimer

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

LAWNMOWER??!!! Please. My Rotax sounds like a chainsaw. A big, friggin, macho, lumberjacking chainsaw. Just kidding. In reality, it sounds like a flying snowmobile. 

   

  do not archive



kirk hull <kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" 



Ok here is a testimonial for Subaru. It is a great engine. It is a little

heaver then a rotax but it is also much more reliable and cheaper. I have a

100hp stratus conversion on a classic 4 with over 150 trouble free hours on

it now. We did have 1 small issue caused by a 3rd party shop in the first

10 hours but stratus fixed the issue right away and we have had no issues

since. 205AK has gone from Kansas city to Oshkosh and all over Kansas

almost to Colorado and climbed to 10000 ft  with no problems. It starts on

the first bump even in the winter and with a heater core in the cabin AK was

one of the few airplanes flying all year (even night flights in January at 0

deg). Pictures of the engine can be found on my EAA website at 

WWW.roosterville612.org on the member projects page /al and kirks Kitfox.

Best of all it sounds like an airplane engine not a lawn mower like the

rotax





--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 	  Quote: 	
		  LAWNMOWER??!!! Please. My Rotax sounds like a chainsaw. A big, friggin, macho, lumberjacking chainsaw. Just kidding. In reality, it sounds like a flying snowmobile.  	




My Kitfox has been referred to as a "Weed wacker".  Doesn't bother me a bit.  I smile all time when I'm flying it.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

My internet has been out for a few days so I'm using the library machine.  The soob is a good engine, but a bit heavy for anything other than a series 5 on up.

Deke

S5/NSI/CAP

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:14:50 -0700, "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 

 To the two of you who are flying EA81s, how do you like them?  I am

 considering one as an option for my plane and it is hard to find

 testimonials for some reason.  Thanks for the help.

 

 --------

 Prospective Kitfox buyer

 Here for information on airframes and engines

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187466#187466

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have a 100hp stratus conversion on a classic 4 with over 150 trouble free hours on it now. We did have 1 small issue caused by a 3rd party shop in the first 10 hours but stratus fixed the issue right away and we have had no issues since. 	




That's 100% more issues than I've had with my 912 and it's been from coast to coast twice. If your "one issue" resulted in an in-flight engine failure then I'd bet that, for a little while, you would have given real money for the sound of a lawnmower up front . 



Seriously though, you can't make general statements about reliability from a test case of 1. You have to look at averages taken over many examples and lots of time. The real problem with the Subs and the like is that, compared to the Rotax, there just aren't enough of them flying to gather real statistics. Also, since there's allot of custom work involved, the reliability of one engine doesn't necessarily translate to the another. You needn't look any further than that one 'third party' issue you had. With a Rotax, there generally aren't any third parties involved so that eliminates one source of potential problems.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

n10pg(at)neo.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Hello Mike:

About 800. All it really needed at that time was a valve job. But since the

engine was on the bench, I had Ron do a complete overhaul.

Peter Graichen

http:/home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm  



--

Firm

Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

That is an extremely good point. A lot of different soobs out there.

Howard 



 	  wingnut wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  I have a 100hp stratus conversion on a classic 4 with over 150 trouble free hours on it now. We did have 1 small issue caused by a 3rd party shop in the first 10 hours but stratus fixed the issue right away and we have had no issues since. 	




That's 100% more issues than I've had with my 912 and it's been from coast to coast twice. If your "one issue" resulted in an in-flight engine failure then I'd bet that, for a little while, you would have given real money for the sound of a lawnmower up front . 



Seriously though, you can't make general statements about reliability from a test case of 1. You have to look at averages taken over many examples and lots of time. The real problem with the Subs and the like is that, compared to the Rotax, there just aren't enough of them flying to gather real statistics. Also, since there's allot of custom work involved, the reliability of one engine doesn't necessarily translate to the another. You needn't look any further than that one 'third party' issue you had. With a Rotax, there generally aren't any third parties involved so that eliminates one source of potential problems.

lkc(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

I also fly a EA81 in my series5 and am quite happy.  I'm not a mechanic and am just learning to fly but the few problems I had were remedies by helpful matronics suggestions.  I climb out (at) 800-1000 FPM, cruse (at) 95-100 MPH, 4.5 GPH- 5GPH ( when flying (at) 105MPH).  Engine starts first time everytime with little upkeep.     Layne  Anchorage, Ak      



____________________________________________________________ 

[url=_blank]Orlando Vacations - Click Here![/url]

  [quote][b]

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Hey Dave,

    What is the deal with the Rotax 583 that I come across every now and then but don't see on any Rotax dealer pages?  Is it just a 582 with some performance parts put on it by a private company?  How does it stack up against a 582 for reliability?  If you or anyone else have answers, let me know.  I am just about sold on a 2 stroke.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hey Dave, 

What is the deal with the Rotax 583 that I come across every now and then but don't see on any Rotax dealer pages? Is it just a 582 with some performance parts put on it by a private company? How does it stack up against a 582 for reliability? If you or anyone else have answers, let me know. I am just about sold on a 2 stroke. 

	




583 will give you more power at higher rpm and use more fuel and less life.  It is basically a Ski doo engine.   582 more reliable.   the 583 is close to a 618.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		  Hey Dave,

    What is the deal with the Rotax 583 that I come across every now and then but don't see on any Rotax dealer pages?  Is it just a 582 with some performance parts put on it by a private company?  How does it stack up against a 582 for reliability?  If you or anyone else have answers, let me know.  I am just about sold on a 2 stroke.  	




When someone calls my 503 a snowmobile engine I reply that IT IS NOT a snowmobile engine.  A snowmobile engine has twice as much power and costs 1/3 as much.



In reality,  Not twice as much power but a lot more than the aircraft version.   Rotax makes Aircraft versions of the Ski Doo engines in both the 582 water cooled and 503 air (fan) cooled engines.



A big difference in the 582 and the 583 is that the 583 uses exhaust valves whereas the 582 aircraft engine operates on back pressure from the exhaust pipe.



Another big difference is dual ignition on the aircraft engines.  They are also detuned for reliability and longevity.  The main detuning on the 503 is in the tuning of the exhaust...the back pressure thing again.

Rotax claims much stricter manufacturing tolerances on the aircraft engines.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 	  Quote: 	
		  A big difference in the 582 and the 583 is that the 583 uses exhaust valves whereas the 582 aircraft engine operates on back pressure from the exhaust pipe. 

	




Tom,  583 is a Ski doo engine . It has larger ports. different port timing as well plus rave valves. It will develop more HP at high RPM.  



503 you can get another 10 HP outta them with a better pipe.  582  - same thing.  Rotax pipe works ok but it a bit on the rich side when you get loaded over 6000 rpm --  your fule flow  on a 582 with go from 20 litres/hour at 6000   to  30 litres a hour at 6800 rpm.  and you will gain very Little for 50% more fuel.

mscotter

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Kirk, you've prob. mentioned this before, but what is your empty weight with the stratus?

What prop are you running with it?  Thanks,



Mark Scott, Elkton, MD 



 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "kirk hull" <kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ok here is a testimonial for Subaru.  It is a great engine. It is a little

 heaver then a rotax but it is also much more reliable and cheaper.  I have a

 100hp stratus conversion on a classic 4 with over 150 trouble free hours on

 it now.  We did have 1 small issue caused by a 3rd party shop in the first

 10 hours but stratus fixed the issue right away and we have had no issues

 since.  205AK has gone from Kansas city to Oshkosh and all over Kansas

 almost to Colorado and climbed to 10000 ft with no problems.  It starts on

 the first bump even in the winter and with a heater core in the cabin AK was

 one of the few airplanes flying all year (even night flights in January at 0

 deg).  Pictures of the engine can be found on my EAA website at 

 WWW.roosterville612.org on the member projects page /al and kirks Kitfox.

 Best of all it sounds like an airplane engine not a lawn mower like the

 rotax

_________________
Mark Scott
Winston-Salem, NC

wannafly

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 53

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

to al subaru runners

  

 I am also running an EA81 with a 2.17 : 1 gear redrive (ross aero)....I just had Ram Engines from Ohio work on my engine and bumped it up to 113 hp...since getting it back and put back in I have been plaqued with over heating probalems...both oil and water,,, The water rad is under the belly just back from the seat....i moved the oil rad to the same place hoping to get some extra cooling for the oil...it helped but not enough...my temp is running about 200-210 for the water and 210-220 for the oil...any ideas or suggestions....Ram engines thinks that with the extra power the redrive is the culprit(they probably want to sell me theirs)...I run an Ivo medium 2 blade in flight adjustable...cruise rpm is 4-4400...Ideas???????????????????

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

 From: janderson412(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:28:52 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "avtar412" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>

 

 I'm running an EA 81 T in my Series 5 and very pleased with it. 2.2:1 PSRU and performs very well. 72" WD prop and intercooler.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189883#189883

 

===========
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


   [quote][b]

wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Kitfox Suber EA81 (2nd message)

Can you post  a pic of your current set up along with some reference for  measurements?

  

 Rick

 [quote]   

   --

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