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chris(at)southernskies.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Hello Listers,



I could use some advice regarding elevator and/or engine mount "trim".



While being pretty new to the Kitfox (1 year, 38 hrs experience) I enjoy the plane very much after learning the rudder pedal dance. I am wondering if something can be adjusted on the elevator or the engine mount.



During full power climb out I have to push that stick way forward to maintain even 55 mph airspeed. Once levelled to cruise  I still need to push forward (or pull up on the flap handle about half way).



Would a little more down thrust (shim the engine mount on the top) help? What about adjusting the elevator- I have plenty of up or down travel available - never run out while flying or landing.



Once the power is cut, I have to pull back a good bit to maintain 50 on approach or for glide- manual says that part is normal.



All of this may be perfectly normal but I wanted to check with the experienced KF flyers. 



My Kitfox was bought after a ground loop by the previous owner and there were some repairs made. Maybe something didn't get rigged correctly?



I use a very long 2 blade wooden climb prop  due to a very short field. Climbs great but very low cruise speed- around 70.



Any comments would be appreciated, on or off line



Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

One of the Skystar tips way back when was to have multiple holes in 

the front elevator attachment in order to fine tune the elevator 

angle to deal with the issue you have..

Paul

===================



At 06:16 AM 6/12/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello Listers,



I could use some advice regarding elevator and/or engine mount "trim".



While being pretty new to the Kitfox (1 year, 38 hrs experience) I 

enjoy the plane very much after learning the rudder pedal dance. I 

am wondering if something can be adjusted on the elevator or the engine mount.



During full power climb out I have to push that stick way forward to 

maintain even 55 mph airspeed. Once levelled to cruise  I still need 

to push forward (or pull up on the flap handle about half way).



Would a little more down thrust (shim the engine mount on the top) 

help? What about adjusting the elevator- I have plenty of up or down 

travel available - never run out while flying or landing.



Once the power is cut, I have to pull back a good bit to maintain 50 

on approach or for glide- manual says that part is normal.



All of this may be perfectly normal but I wanted to check with the 

experienced KF flyers.



My Kitfox was bought after a ground loop by the previous owner and 

there were some repairs made. Maybe something didn't get rigged correctly?



I use a very long 2 blade wooden climb prop  due to a very short 

field. Climbs great but very low cruise speed- around 70.



Any comments would be appreciated, on or off line



Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

 	  Quote: 	
		  During full power climb out I have to push that stick way forward to maintain even 55 mph airspeed. Once levelled to cruise I still need to push forward (or pull up on the flap handle about half way). 	




Chris,

Definitely not normal to have to push stick to climb.  Some questions come to mind real quick:



Where is the leading edge of the horizontal stab mounted?  Most are as high as they can get it?



Where is the center of gravity when you fly?



Can you measure the thrust line of the engine compared to the wing?



For what it's worth.  My classic four climbs at 60 mph hands off with full power, 6200 rpm, CG 12.5 inches, 72 inch warp prop.



Just a tiny bit...about 1/2 inch up flap handle... to trim hands off level at 5800 rpm.



CG limits are 10.2 to 16 inches so this example is with CG nearer the foreword limit.



Leading edge of horizontal stab is in the middle hole.  As near as I can measure engine thrust line is about 1 or 2 degrees down compared to the bottom of the wing root rib.  Don't quote me on the thrust line as my measuring method was crude.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

At 05:16 AM 6/12/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  During full power climb out I have to push that stick way forward to 

maintain even 55 mph airspeed. Once levelled to cruise  I still need 

to push forward (or pull up on the flap handle about half way).


	


This part is not normal. My stick forces change very little between 

climb and cruise.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Would a little more down thrust (shim the engine mount on the top) 

help? What about adjusting the elevator- I have plenty of up or down 

travel available - never run out while flying or landing.


	


I would check the thrust vector and shim it to 0 vertically. I like 

the performance and diminished thrust trim response that gives. I 

would check your decalage. (Angle between wing and horizontal stab.) 

I minimized mine by raising the horizontal leading edge as much as possible.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Once the power is cut, I have to pull back a good bit to maintain 50 

on approach or for glide- manual says that part is normal.


	


This is normal.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

chris(at)southernskies.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Thank you all for the tips. I forgot to mention that I have a BRS behind the co-pilot seat. Not sure how any weight could be moved forward- if this is a CG issue- perhaps the ELT battery, it is behind the seat also. Battery is in engine compartment. I did not build the plane but checked the builders log regarding CG and that all looks o.k. The BRS was added afterward but there is no other option to mount it. The header tank is behind the seats also. I'm a lightweight pilot at 160 lbs. With a passenger its not as pronounced.

I'll do another CG check but I suspect the thrust line or rigging is at fault.



The prop is a 2 blade Tennessee Propeller 72x44- somewhat lighter than the 3 blade Ivo that was damaged in the groundloop by the previous owner.



The engine was removed and sent for overhaul so perhaps when it was put back in something didn't get installed the way it was- if there is any down angle to it in the first place.



I did move the forward attachment bracket on the horizontal stabilizer in the uppermost hole already but still need plenty of forward stick when climbing. If I were to let go of the stick during climb the plane would quickly pitch up and likely stall (haven't tried it....) it scares me a bit and I would like to fix it.



Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582



--

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Yes I bet the cg is not optimum and is worth checking.

Options :

- Bigger main battery - heavier

- Remove the BRS not much use for it on a slow plane. - lighten up 

the plane & move the cg fwd.

- Move the elevator. Drill another hole . If no room take it off and 

add metal to provide more room for the next hole. These items are 

common fixes discussed over the years.



The elevator and heavy battery are mods that degrade the performance. 

Lighter weight will help performance more than you think.

IMO. I would not mess with the engine mount.

Paul

================

At 05:54 AM 6/13/2008, you wrote:

[quote]



Thank you all for the tips. I forgot to mention that I have a BRS 

behind the co-pilot seat. Not sure how any weight could be moved 

forward- if this is a CG issue- perhaps the ELT battery, it is 

behind the seat also. Battery is in engine compartment. I did not 

build the plane but checked the builders log regarding CG and that 

all looks o.k. The BRS was added afterward but there is no other 

option to mount it. The header tank is behind the seats also. I'm a 

lightweight pilot at 160 lbs. With a passenger its not as pronounced.

I'll do another CG check but I suspect the thrust line or rigging is at fault.



The prop is a 2 blade Tennessee Propeller 72x44- somewhat lighter 

than the 3 blade Ivo that was damaged in the groundloop by the previous owner.



The engine was removed and sent for overhaul so perhaps when it was 

put back in something didn't get installed the way it was- if there 

is any down angle to it in the first place.



I did move the forward attachment bracket on the horizontal 

stabilizer in the uppermost hole already but still need plenty of 

forward stick when climbing. If I were to let go of the stick during 

climb the plane would quickly pitch up and likely stall (haven't 

tried it....) it scares me a bit and I would like to fix it.



Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582



--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

 	  Quote: 	
		  Thank you all for the tips. I forgot to mention that I have a BRS behind the co-pilot seat. Not sure how any weight could be moved forward- if this is a CG issue- perhaps the ELT battery, it is behind the seat also. Battery is in engine compartment. I did not build the plane but checked the builders log regarding CG and that all looks o.k. The BRS was added afterward but there is no other option to mount it. The header tank is behind the seats also. I'm a lightweight pilot at 160 lbs. With a passenger its not as pronounced. 

I'll do another CG check but I suspect the thrust line or rigging is at fault. 	




Chris, with the above information I now lean heavily toward an adverse aft CG being the problem.  If I am understanding the chart on the BRS web site, one mounted behind the seat is heavy enough to move the CG aft.



http://brsparachutes.com/files/Documents/BRS%20Retail%20Price%20List%20June%2008.pdf



Given the history of modifications to the airplane you should re-weigh it to be sure.



Edited to remove the 80 pounds.  I see now the BRS is not near that heavy.  But still recommend you re-weigh the airplane.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Last edited by Tom Jones on Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

I just looked in the Aircraft Spruce catalog, and the cannister packed 1050 lb BRS weighs 28 lbs and the soft pack weighs 24 lbs.  Just my opinion, but shouldn't you do a weight and balence so you know for sure.  Planes somehow get heavier as they age (like a lot of wives) (fortunatly not mine)  and adding 24 or 28 lbs at once is quite a  change.  I think the FAA regs probably would require the W/B also with that much change.  Jim Chuk  Avids,  kitfox 4  Mn

[quote] Subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

 From: nahsikhs(at)elltel.net

 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:08:44 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>

 > Thank you all for the tips. I forgot to mention that I have a BRS behind the co-pilot seat. Not sure how any weight could be moved forward- if this is a CG issue- perhaps the ELT battery, it is behind the seat also. Battery is in engine compartment. I did not build the plane but checked the builders log regarding CG and that all looks o.k. The BRS was added afterward but there is no other option to mount it. The header tank is behind the seats also. I'm a lightweight pilot at 160 lbs. With a passenger its not as pronounced. 

 > I'll do another CG check but I suspect the thrust line or rigging is at fault. 

 Chris, with the above information I now lean heavily toward an adverse aft CG being the problem. If I am understanding the chart on the BRS web site (over 80 pounds for a 1050 model) one mounted behind the seat is heavy enough to easily put the CG behind the aft limit of a kitfox.

 http://brsparachutes.com/files/Documents/BRS%20Retail%20Price%20List%20June%2008.pdf

 Given the history of modifications to the airplane you should re-weigh it to be sure.

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187729#187729

 > 

Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live™ Messenger. Invite friends now!   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

I edited my post above to remove the 80 pounds weight of the BRS.  I was confused by their chart.  I was thinking the three systems were three parts of one system so I added them all together.  Not so.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

before you do anything, you must do a weight and balance.  Once you are done with that, than we can help you.  Make sure and give us the specs from the weight and balance.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

Oh and if you didn't know, the weight and balance is done with dry weight. No fuel and no extras like luggage.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

DO a W & Balance. 



and /or  remove the BRS -- then re weigh. 



try it without the BRS. 



don;t want to stir a controversy on BRS but I will  say that I won't fly a pane that needs a chute unless it strapped to me and I am doing test flights.



I notice you move your horizontal stab up a notch ?  I have flown Kitfox with it too low after float removal and it does give a little pull. Kitfox control are very light overall though. 



Dave

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

No way, leave the BRS on when doing the weight and balance, it is part of the aircraft.  Chances are you have too much tail weight.  Besides you need to know what your current problem is.  Sorry to say this, but the BRS is a must if you have a 2 stroke.  I'm going to catch heck now.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

Mike ,



That I meant in above message -- do W & B first ......... 

Then if too far aft remove the BRS and try it .......... if the Cof G become in range again then remove it and test fly it.



As far as the 2 stroke comment -----what ever ..........  99% of all engine failures stem from the operator .. 912s die too as do any engine.......... most issues are fuel related.  My Kitfox has 470 hours on the last engine i put in June 2006 and that is my 3rd engine in this plane.



And furthermore I would certainly rather land engine out in control that with a BRS taking you were it wants to . Kitfoxes make good gliders.  



Dave

Catz631(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Chris,

   What you could do,as I did,is to install an elevator trim tab. I too  have the classic 4 with the BRS behind the seat. I am much heavier than you and  have the stab adjusted to the bottom hole vs the top. I was getting an arm like  "Popeye" holding back pressure on landing. I also had to hold a little forward  pressure on take off and in cruise which I solved by installing a little bungee  device on the stick (as I once had in a Tailwind)

   Finally I said enough of this mickey mouse stuff and I ordered an   elevator trim system from Highwing LLc .I installed the "hat" switch  on the stick and I can now take off , cruise and land almost hands off. No more  elevator pressure. It is the best improvement I have done on the aircraft. I  feel your pain !

                                                             

                                                             Dick Maddux

                                                             Fox 4-1200

                                                             Pensacola,Fl



Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

  [quote][b]

Catz631(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

My Fox 4 has the BRS behind the co pilot also and my battery is on the  inside of the firewall (pilot compartment side). I weigh 230 lbs (I know lard  ass) I am  running the 912 which is somewhat heavier than the 2 stroke I  believe.

  I just did a weight and balance a month ago and I am comfortably  within the cg limits and no way to get out of limits without exceeding gross  (which I won,t do)

  

                                                              Dick Maddux

                                                               Pensacola,Fl



Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

  [quote][b]

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 No way, leave the BRS on when doing the weight and balance, it is part of the aircraft.  Chances are you have too much tail weight.  Besides you need to know what your current problem is.  Sorry to say this, but the BRS is a must if you have a 2 stroke.  I'm going to catch heck now.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187836#187836



   

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Checked by AVG. 

   

WOW,Mike that Hurts,,Steve Shinabery N554KF  KF2  with the mighty 582

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

I wouldn’t say you’ll catch heck...  But if your plane needs to have a BRS to be safe then you have the wrong plane.  One of the nice things about the ‘Fox is it lands pretty nice deadstick.   It may be of some use in the case of a mid air incursion. In such a case the BRS itself may be damaged.  If you have felt safe flying without the BRS then pull it and gain the weight advantage and help your balance situation which sounds to be seriously aft.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8CE64.E7A23D40[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

Going 912, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

EMAproducts(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Fellow builders  Happy Fathers Day!

 I was glad to see that some of you gave good information re the forward  stick on climbout~~

  

 As a 25,000 hour pilot I attribute a lot of my non scary experiences to  always doing a weight and balance prior to every flight in a new aircraft, be it  a Pitts S-2, Aeronca C-3 or a new to me homebuilt.  The cause of many  accidents is improper weight and balance because the pilot didn't do it  correctly ~~ and have a flight advisor or another pilot double check your  work.  A tail heavy aircraft is nothing less than dangerous.  Some  certified aircraft will NOT recover from a spin if 1/4 " aft of approved  CG.  This is from an FAA Test pilot that was doing spin testing  several years ago. If I recall his comments correctly 3 times out of 5 recovery  was normal, other two they had to pop the spin chute.  Limits are critical  ~~We have enough accidents in our homebuilt aircraft without these type of  flights.  

 Talk to someone who has flown an aircraft of same make and model.  Get  them to go over your data, insure all parameters are correct, including  your currency prior to that first flight.  If it doesn't feel right  ~~Something is probably wrong.  I've flown three KitFox, with Honda &  Rotax of different power engines, they all flew fantastic, trim was excellent on  all.

 Elbie Mendenhall

 CFI since '62 

 EAA Flight Advisor 

  



Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

  [quote][b]

chris(at)southernskies.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Thanks again for the info. I will do a new W&B and add some weight somewhere in the front if needed - the only option here appears to be a lead block under the engine mount or a heavier prop. Can't take anything away in the rear and don't feel like removing the BRS- it seems like a great option in case of a structural failure or mid-air. Seems to me a BRS is like an airbag in a car- you'll likely never need it but the one time you did need it it was good to have. I don't want to add to the discussion about the merits of having a parachute in the first place- it's a personal choice maybe. 



Once established the CG within limits and problem still exists it seems the trim tab would be a great addition.



Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582



 	  Quote: 	
		  Time: 03:48:44 AM PST US

From: Catz631(at)aol.com

Subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout



Chris,

  What you could do,as I did,is to install an elevator trim tab. I too  have 

the classic 4 with the BRS behind the seat. I am much heavier than you and  

have the stab adjusted to the bottom hole vs the top. I was getting an arm like



"Popeye" holding back pressure on landing. I also had to hold a little 

forward  pressure on take off and in cruise which I solved by installing a little



bungee  device on the stick (as I once had in a Tailwind)

  Finally I said enough of this mickey mouse stuff and I ordered an  elevator 

trim system from Highwing LLc .I installed the "hat" switch  on the stick and 

I can now take off , cruise and land almost hands off. No more  elevator 

pressure. It is the best improvement I have done on the aircraft. I  feel your



pain !

                                                           

                                                            Dick Maddux

                                                            Fox 4-1200

                                                            Pensacola,Fl

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