Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Question: What would you do?

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Question: What would you do?

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> TeamGrumman-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: Question: What would you do?

A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield.  At the time, I was 6 planes deep.  By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep.   

 

  I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks.  I wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two weeks already.  In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be installed.  By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day.  I wanted to wait a week before installing the windshield.  

  

 

  I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done.

  

 

  Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.'  SOOOO . .  While the windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow.  In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side.  This took about 3 1/2 hours.  To make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours.  To my way of thinking, we'd both save time.  Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in.  

  

 

  As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield.  Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.  But, I did get it in.  And it fit fine.  I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way around the canopy/windshield bow.  

  

 

  When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me.  I'll send you a check."  OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag used for the logbook entry."  When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily."  So, I took out a couple of the spacer shims.  

  

 

  The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.  

  

 

  I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't close all the way.  There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light through the right upper corner."  I suggested replacing the shims.  

  

 

  On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone.  SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen.  Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane.

  

 

  OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward.  I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it.  

  

 

  SC:  "I think you should come down here and fix it."  A 3 hour flight one way.  I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn.  I figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.   I'd fix it for no-charge.  

  

 

  Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up.  SC:  "I can't afford your eyebrow.  I never asked for you to change the wiring."   OK, fair enough.  My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow.  I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago.  Mind fart.  I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also.  

  

 

  So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield.  I'm not 100% convinced SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn).  

  

 

  At this point, I have three choices: 

  (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid; 

  (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the full amount after it's finished; or 

  (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield.

  

 

  The total invoice right now is around $1600.  I've got about 12 hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours for the wiring.

  

 

  What would you do?

 Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! 

  [quote][b]

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

phil(at)ReliantAir.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: Question: What would you do?

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: Question: What would you do?

For starters, #1.  I doubt that he'll bring the airplane to you, though.  Then, I'd sue the sucker for the whole bill (and legal expenses, if you can), making sure the airplane couldn't leave if it did show up.

 

 Now I know that you don't really need to hear this ...... the shoe's on the other foot (AKA the annual from hell) ...... where things weren't written down.   When I was a slave (OK, consultant), I had to create a huge document that described what my customer wanted and how I was going to provide it.  It was part of my contract.  And you know, even with that, I still got 'well, you said' ....... and a nasty letter from a lawyer (who was usually on retainer anyway).  I always won, but it took time  away from my customers, not to mention my money.   The legal crap was a big reason why I weaned myself off of being a consultant.

 Linn ..... I really hate paperwork too!

 

 

 teamgrumman(at)aol.com (teamgrumman(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote]A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield.  At the time, I was 6 planes deep.  By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep.     

   

   I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks.  I wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two weeks already.  In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be installed.  By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day.  I wanted to wait a week before installing the windshield.  

   

   

   I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done.

   

   

   Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.'  SOOOO . .  While the windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow.  In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side.  This took about 3 1/2 hours.  To make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours.  To my way of thinking, we'd both save time.  Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in.  

   

   

   As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield.  Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.  But, I did get it in.  And it fit fine.  I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way around the canopy/windshield bow.  

   

   

   When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me.  I'll send you a check."  OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag used for the logbook entry."  When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily."  So, I took out a couple of the spacer shims.  

   

   

   The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.  

   

   

   I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't close all the way.  There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light through the right upper corner."  I suggested replacing the shims.  

   

   

   On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone.  SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen.  Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane.

   

   

   OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward.  I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it.  

   

   

   SC:  "I think you should come down here and fix it."  A 3 hour flight one way.  I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn.  I figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.   I'd fix it for no-charge.  

   

   

   Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up.  SC:  "I can't afford your eyebrow.  I never asked for you to change the wiring."   OK, fair enough.  My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow.  I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago.  Mind fart.  I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also.  

   

   

   So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield.  I'm not 100% convinced SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn).  

   

   

   At this point, I have three choices: 

   (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid; 

   (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the full amount after it's finished; or 

   (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield.

   

   

   The total invoice right now is around $1600.  I've got about 12 hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours for the wiring.

   

   

   What would you do?

      Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! 

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: Question: What would you do?

A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for  the total amount due. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/record_aircraft_lien/

      2) Be sure  to  include telephone consultation charges of at least $2  per minute  and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a written bill yet, be sure  to 

          increase  the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush order charges and any  other legitimate charges one would recieve from a Jet repair  center.

      3) Also include  interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18%

      4) File FAA Form  8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the windshield is not installed  correctly and improper logbook. This will help protect you

           in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the fact that  the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion

           http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf

  

 or

  

 B. Go to customer location remove winshield  and all other work with most expediant method and leave it that  way...

  

 or

  

 C. Call Guido "the break a you legs  collector"

  

 or

  

 D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win  race. I'll do what ever it takes to get resolution to problem,,,

  

 [quote]   ---

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: Question: What would you do?

I would think that just the threat of doing  A.would get the thief to pay his bill....I'd tell him that after his check  cleared then you would be willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider  doing repairs......

   [quote][b]

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Question: What would you do?

what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and owner?

 

 

 --

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

bhauskne(at)san.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Question: What would you do?

Let's not get too rash suggesting that he post real names and such.  There are two sides to every story, and while Gary has emphasized his efforts to make good on the situation, there did seem to be some initial miscommunication regarding at least the eyebrow work.  I'm not suggesting blame on anyone's part.  There is just a "situation" that needs to be cleared up where each party probably feels justified in their positions and actions to date.  Let's not escalate this.

   

 I'm not a lawyer, but it may be prudent for Gary to get an hour's worth of consultation (with all due respect to the learned members of this message list...!)  Perhaps Gary should take measures to protect his interests, such as a written request for payment, then the liens that someone has suggested. Maybe he can negotiat with the customer for partial payment (at least 1/2 of the original windshield estimate) for now as a good faith measure before any additional travel or work is done on the plane.  Take reasonable measures first, and keep it civil as long as you can.  Because when it gets to litigation, it will likely get ugly and expensive.

  

 

 On 6/18/08, teamgrumman(at)aol.com (teamgrumman(at)aol.com) <teamgrumman(at)aol.com (teamgrumman(at)aol.com)> wrote: [quote]what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and owner?

 --

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

jetinc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Question: What would you do?

Hi Gary,

  

 What an asshole!  In all of my dealings with you you've been more than fair; actually, much more than fair. And I've always felt grateful that it was you who performed all the work.  Moreover, there's an invaluable piece of mind and confidence knowing it was you who did the work.  You're a true gear head!  (That's a compliment, by the way...).

  

 I'd have the loser fly up and then you could take a look.  It there are issues or the window settled then fix it at no charge.  But I would make sure that he has the money/check and if it's a check then make him go to the bank with you when he comes to get the plane.  Otherwise, lock it up in your hanger.

  

 My dad did autoglass for over 50 years and has a fantastic reputation for his quality of work.  People would come from miles away to have work on their classic and rare cars.  He's truly an artisan.  And so are you. 

  

 If you ever need a referal, don't hesitate to give a potential customer my number.

  

 Cheers Brother!

 Eddie

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com 

what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and owner?

--

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> TeamGrumman-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum