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Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

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Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

I was sick for about six months, but got my medical back and am back to learning about this model 2 I rebuilt. I had a great day on Saturday. Flew some formation against a Thorpe Scooter, whose owner was delighted to be the faster of the two airplanes.

 With about 20 hours in the airplane, I have gotten so that I never touch the flap handle. What is it there for? To be able to fly slower without stalling? I guess I can go back and check how much difference that makes, but I fly final at least at 55 regardless, which is plenty above stall speed with any flap setting. You guys tell me that the flap handle is there to trim the airplane, but something about that doesn't square well. The faster you go, the more the nose wants to rotate up; that is basic longitudinal stability. To trim nose down, you must shift the center of lift backwards by putting flaps down further. Flaps are drag, right? Now, let me see if I have this straight. When I get to going fast, I either hold the stick pressure, or I add drag. Putting flaps down is going to fix the problem one way or the other because it is going to kill all the speed!Corollary question:What flap setting gives the best speed



What are the three bolt holes at the leading edge of my horizontal stab? Am I free to experiment with using any of the three? Since my stab struts do not have turnbuckles, I would be warping the leading edge by choosing a higher angle of incidence. Any problem with that?



One more thing regarding my 582. I have the carbs adjusted exactly even with each other with open throttle, I can't get them any closer. I am seeing some difference in EGT between cylinders at high power. Should I open up the cooler one a few turns? 



Wa-Hoo!, I am loving it.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

At 09:36 PM 6/22/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Flaps are drag, right? Now, let me see if I have this straight. When 

I get to going fast, I either hold the stick pressure, or I add 

drag. Putting flaps down is going to fix the problem one way or the 

other because it is going to kill all the speed!Corollary 

question:What flap setting gives the best speed


	


Well, any trim is drag, the question is, what system generates the 

least drag. I have found that the elevator, probably because of its 

long arm, generates less drag than using the flaps for trim. I 

therefore installed an elevator trim tab. Once I did I then fiddled 

both until I had maximum speed in cruise. I found the cruise speed, 

though, to be fairly insensitive to configuration.



 	  Quote: 	
		  What are the three bolt holes at the leading edge of my horizontal 

stab? Am I free to experiment with using any of the three? Since my 

stab struts do not have turnbuckles, I would be warping the leading 

edge by choosing a higher angle of incidence. Any problem with that?


	


You're free to experiment, but only if you put adjustment capability 

on your struts, or make three pairs of struts. I wouldn't bend 

anything. (I think most run their stab LE as "flat" as possible, 

(high LE,) which makes for less trim drag and less pitch stability.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

RE: Trimming with flaps and EGTs



Jeff, Pulling the flap handle up pitches the nose down.  Don't worry about losing speed with this set up for trimming...it is a kitfox.    My Classic 4 cruises at 75 and needs just 1/2 inch or less of up flap handle to trim the nose down to level hands off.  I can't see any loss of speed on the indicator.  I get on my snowmobile when I want to go really fast.



The carb pistons (slides) should be set even at closed throttle  They should both contact the idle screw stop at the same time as throttle is closed.  Then check to see that they both move up at exactly the same time when throttle is advanced.  They should be just clear of the top of the carb throat at full throttle.  Be sure the throttle handle hits it's stop at full throttle so the force is not on the cables. 



The carb main jet controls fuel and thus EGT at full throttle.  Different EGT between cylinders is not unusual.  It can easily be a temp gage error.  Switch the probes in the exhaust manifold Y to trouble shoot it.  If it is in spec (I think 45 degrees F difference) and runs good and smooth, don't worry about it.  It is mostly a base line reading to monitor for changes anyhow.  Check the spark plug color for the final decision.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

I also have a model 2 with a 582, and am finding new uses for the flaps all

the time. According to the Kitfox pilot's manual the first notch adds mostly

lift and a little drag, the second notch adds lots of drag and a little

lift.



I'm not sure how many Kitfox pilots use it as a STOL aircraft but that was

the emphasis of the original designs, and the flaperons were the major part

of that. My Kitfox is hangered in my barn and will be flown into and out of

wherever I can, hence my choice of a good STOL aircraft. In fact I trained

at a very short grass farm strip with mostly trikes and large obstacles no

matter which way you land.



I use no flaps when flying alone with light fuel load on takeoff, notch one

if I have a passenger and/or fuel load. Landing at a "normal" airport I

would not use flaps, but dropping in to a short grass field over a 50ft+

tree I use 1 notch after turning to final which noses down and floats so I

can accurately plan phase 2, then put on notch 2 just over the obstacle so a

steep descent doesn't increase airspeed and I can flare in the shortest

possible distance. I also use 2 notches under any conditions if I am light

and don't want to float forever on the flare 



A word of caution though, also from personal experience, don't use flaps on

landing in anything other than straight flight. On a model 2 you can

seriously run out of control authority with flaps, low airspeed, and a steep

turn. My instructor called it "falling off the wing" with a wing low and the

stick full over to the other side and the airplane heading sideways towards

the ground. Dumping flaps is too late at that point, so I learned to just

never do it!



Oh and one more use for flaps - 1 notch on a clear summer's day, throttle

back, fling open the doors, diddle the stick up, and enjoy the view! (Using

the wheel as a footrest can be fun too, but possibly not legal...)



Bob



--

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

That has been my experience too, that flap position does not seem to affect my cruise speed, but no controlled study so far. I am finding that trimming for high speed is more flap than I would want on final.



I have not bothered to put notches in my flap handle. I can set an infinite range without stops to prevent too far forward or two far aft, using the leather washer design to hold the handle where I put it.  I have paid the price for having this configuration and am trying to at least mark the safe limits. Up to at least three stories to tell on that one, the last one resulted in quite an air-show at the controlled field.  I believe I experienced the lack of roll authority you referenced in the flare, even though the flaps were at a setting that still gave full authority to the ailerons. I swear another factor, as I was trying to get that right wing to go down, was adverse yaw pulling the left one backwards.



I am still getting a little skip at mid range from the engine. It has been since last September that I played with the mixture screw. That is when I put #45 idle jets in it. It idles better but still some four cycling, but much better. I have to read up again to remember what I can achieve by adjusting the mixture screws.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

Don't overanalyize it Jeff. It works. Pull up the flap lever in flight and the nose comes down. From my experience in a M2, that's about all the flaps are really good for. Lemme guess, your forward cylinder EGT runs 50-100 degrees cooler than the aft, right? 

  

  

Marco Menezes N99KX 

Mod 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Mon, 6/23/08, Jeffrey Dill <1dillfamily(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 [quote]From: Jeffrey Dill <1dillfamily(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 12:36 AM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Dill" <1dillfamily(at)comcast.net>  I was sick for about six months, but got my medical back and am back to learning about this model 2 I rebuilt. I had a great day on Saturday. Flew some formation against a Thorpe Scooter, whose owner was delighted to be the faster of the two airplanes.  With about 20 hours in the airplane, I have gotten so that I never touch the flap handle. What is it there for? To be able to fly slower without stalling? I guess I can go back and check how much difference that makes, but I fly final at least at 55 regardless, which is plenty above stall speed with any flap setting. You guys tell me that the flap handle is there to trim the airplane, but something about that doesn't square well. The faster you go, the more the nose wants to rotate up; that is basic longitudinal stability. To trim nose down, you must shift the center of lift backwards by putting flaps down further. Flaps are drag, right? Now, let me see if I have this straight. When I get to going fast, I either hold the stick pressure, or I add drag. Putting flaps down is going to fix the problem one way or the other because it is going to kill all the speed!Corollary question:What flap setting gives the best speed  What are the three bolt holes at the leading edge of my horizontal stab? Am I free to experiment with using any of the three? Since my stab struts do not have turnbuckles, I would be warping the leading edge by choosing a higher angle of incidence. Any problem with that?  One more thing regarding my 582. I have the carbs adjusted exactly even with each other with open throttle, I can't get them any closer. I am seeing some difference in EGT between cylinders at high power. Should I open up the cooler one a few turns?   Wa-Hoo!, I am loving it.  -------- Jeff Dill Model 2, 767JD     Read this topic online here:  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189219#189219                  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

Manitoba used to have laws against riding on the running boards of any

vehicle (Harley owners loved that one)  but I don't know of any law

restricting putting your foot on the wheel... how about hang gliders where

the feet are the wheels??  I think You're legal.

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, 582,B box

Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

The skip at midrange you mention sounds like your midrange mixture is to rich.  The idle circut will not have much effect at midrange, that is controlled by the jet needle and needle jet.  If the EGTs are low and the sparkplugs are black in color, I would raise the clip one notch on the jet needle.  Jim Chuk  Avids  Kitfox 4  Mn

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

 From: 1dillfamily(at)comcast.net

 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:03:09 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Dill" <1dillfamily(at)comcast.net>

 That has been my experience too, that flap position does not seem to affect my cruise speed, but no controlled study so far. I am finding that trimming for high speed is more flap than I would want on final.

 I have not bothered to put notches in my flap handle. I can set an infinite range without stops to prevent too far forward or two far aft, using the leather washer design to hold the handle where I put it. I have paid the price for having this configuration and am trying to at least mark the safe limits. Up to at least three stories to tell on that one, the last one resulted in quite an air-show at the controlled field. I believe I experienced the lack of roll authority you referenced in the flare, even though the flaps were at a setting that still gave full authority to the ailerons. I swear another factor, as I was trying to get that right wing to go down, was adverse yaw pulling the left one backwards.

 I am still getting a little skip at mid range from the engine. It has been since last September that I played with the mixture screw. That is when I put #45 idle jets in it. It idles better but still some four cycling, but much better. I have to read up again to remember what I can achieve by adjusting the mixture screws.

 --------

 Jeff Dill

 Model 2, 767JD

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189375#189375

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

I was given a little trick to setting up the idle screws on the Bing 54 carbs.  First thing was to remove the carbs from the plane and back the idle screws to a point where the slides bottom right out.  Then lift the slide withyour finger and let it drop you will hear a sound as it bottoms.  Turn the idle screw in a fraction of a turn and do the same thing again until the sound of the bottoming dulls.  This is the point where the idle screw first makes contact with the slide.  Do this to both carbs.  Turn in the idle screw on both carbs exactly the same number of turns.   This part I’m a bit fuzzy on.  I think it’s around 1 ½ turns.  Either way when you adjust one carb adjust the other the exact same amount.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8D564.1E9953F0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

And the wind on my toes is SOOO refreshing... 



--

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

I have used my flaps in the reflex position and found that I can gain a couple of extra miles per hr in cruise - I also have to use a little forward pressure to counter the nose up trim. 

 

Being a model  4,  I don't have the serious reduction in aileron movement when using flap so I experiment a lot with it. 

 

regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 / Jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. [quote][b]

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I concur, Gary. During Phase I, I experimented with flaps in reflex and  found a few knots. I have the HS in the lowest position and a trim tab on the  elevator. 

  

 Roger

 KF4-1200, 912UL

 [quote]   ---

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

As I said, I had a great day Saturday. I attached a picture taken in flight at 85 MPH. If you use your imagination, I think you can see the position of the elevator trailing edge down. I was pushing and it would seem like this un-faired position might be adding drag. I would like to raise the leading edge of the Horizontal stab, but have been told not to warp it (which it already is a bit set in the middle hole) and I am not apt to cut and weld a longer strut.

     As for the midrange skip, I had a two cycle guy move the needle valve. Was it the jet needle, or the needle jet? The one with the four clip positions. He moved it one notch and looked at the plugs after running it and then moved it back in fear that it was running too hot. So I will leave those alone. I guess I might play with the mixture screws; I have not touched those since changing the idle jets.

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Jeff Dill
Model 2

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

The jet needle is a needle, and the needle jet is the thing that the  

needle goes into and comes out of...think male (needle) and female  

(jet). I can't for the life of me think whey they have to refer to  

the jet needle as a "jet" needle, but I CAN understand why they call  

the jet a needle jet, so as not to be confused with the main jet, or  

the idle jet. Like everything else in aviation, confusion seems to be  

abundant.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/538 hrs

do not archive



On Jun 24, 2008, at 7:06 AM, Jeffrey Dill wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <1dillfamily(at)comcast.net>



 As I said, I had a great day Saturday. I attached a picture taken  

 in flight at 85 MPH. If you use your imagination, I think you can  

 see the position of the elevator trailing edge down. I was pushing  

 and it would seem like this un-faired position might be adding  

 drag. I would like to raise the leading edge of the Horizontal  

 stab, but have been told not to warp it (which it already is a bit  

 set in the middle hole) and I am not apt to cut and weld a longer  

 strut.

      As for the midrange skip, I had a two cycle guy move the  

 needle valve. Was it the jet needle, or the needle jet? The one  

 with the four clip positions. He moved it one notch and looked at  

 the plugs after running it and then moved it back in fear that it  

 was running too hot. So I will leave those alone. I guess I might  

 play with the mixture screws; I have not touched those since  

 changing the idle jets.



 --------

 Jeff Dill

 Model 2, 767JD





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189531#189531





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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Why do I have a flap handle? Model 2

Over-analyzing again; I plead guilty. It occurred to me that the minimum flap drag at cruise speed is probably synonymous  with the point of least resistance for the flaps. In other words, if I relax the torque on the flap handle bolt to the point where it no longer stays where I put it, the flaps will fair to the point of least resistance (for the flaps, not necessarily the airplane as a whole). I can mark where they go at cruise speed and that ought to be the least drag setting for the flaps, and I suspect the airplane as a whole.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

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