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Spar Cap Extrusion...

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SafeAirOne

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Manchester, NH

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

I am still preparing to pull my first rivet on a plans-built 701.  I have found a reasonably-priced local source for the aluminum sheet and extrusions (Yarde Metals).  They have a good selection of 6061 T6 including both square-corner (AA) and radiused corner (AS) angle.



I think I was reading in some European Government document regarding 701 certification,  that they required the spar cap angles to be the type with a radiused inside corner.



Is one better than the other?  The price is about the same, I'm sure, but is one profile better than the other structurally?



Thanks,



--Mark



Do Not Archive

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Hi Mark,

The inside corner would convey stresses better than a sharp inside 

corner, but I've never seen 6061-t6 made that way.

If it were available, I'd make a point of obtaining and using it in lieu 

of the sharp corner angle to avoid the potential of a stress

fracture.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



SafeAirOne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am still preparing to pull my first rivet on a plans-built 701.  I have found a reasonably-priced local source for the aluminum sheet and extrusions (Yarde Metals).  They have a good selection of 6061 T6 including both square-corner (AA) and radiused corner (AS) angle.



 I think I was reading in some European Government documment regarding 701 certification,  that they required the spar cap angles to be the type with a radiused inside corner.



 Is one better than the other?  The price is about the same, I'm sure, but is one profile better than the other structurally?



 Thanks,



 --Mark



 Do Not Archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188885#188885

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Mark

I don't know if one is better than the other but consider this



The radiused corner has LESS cross sectional area



I personally do not see a difference.



The material  I got was 0.125 at a local aluminum supplier and it has

the rounded corner.  The 093 as I understand it is a special run that

ZAC supplies.

 



 

 

 

Randall J Hebert

 

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc

Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers

Lafayette, Louisiana

PH 337-261-1976      -     FX 337-261-1977



--

dan(at)hillsgun.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

I also got my .125 extrusion locally and it has the squared inside corner.

When I looked at the construction cd  in the flaperon skeleton, section 1,

page 3 it shows a picture of the hinge bracket in the margin that clearly

shows the extrusion with a square corner so I am confidant that it will be

ok. Dan.



--

SafeAirOne

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Manchester, NH

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...

[quote="randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co"]

The radiused corner has LESS cross sectional area[quote]



Thanks for everyone's help.  I wish I could post a picture of the 2 profiles, but the catalog is in PDF format (all 493 pages of it).



Hmm...Just looking at the cross section images in the Yarde Metals catalog, it SEEMS like the angle with the radiused inside corner has the same cross section as the sharp cornered ones with a fillet ADDED to the inside corner.  



However, unlike the squared angle, the ends of the rdiused angle's legs are also rounded down, so it may be possible that the overall cross section is less than the squared angle.



I don't think it'll matter a whole lot--the .125 thickness is already more than the plans call for the radiused inside corner will just be a bonus, I guess!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

 	  Quote: 	
		   I wish I could post a picture of the 2 profiles, but the catalog is in PDF

format
	




You can grab anything even from protected PDF documents. The "Print Screen"

key on your keyboard (or "PrtSc") copies the entire screen to the clipboard.

Print-screen combined with the Alt key only snaps the currently selected

window. Then open your favorite paint or photo editing program and paste the

clipboard into a blank document. It will be a large image so crop it to the

interesting portion.



-- Craig



--

SafeAirOne

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Manchester, NH

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Thanks!



...Here are the profiles of the angles to which I refer:

ANGLES.JPG

Description:

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4.39 KB

Viewed:

20676 Time(s)

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Go with the one on the left.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive



--- SafeAirOne <safeairone(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 "SafeAirOne" <safeairone(at)verizon.net>

 

 Thanks!

 

 ...Here are the profiles of the angles to which I

 refer:

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/angles_438.jpg

ricklach

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Kernville, Calif.

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Could any one take a look at their factory kit and clarify exactly what Zenith is supplying in the factory kits.



Rick

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

The square one is called architectural extrusion, and the round web is called structural aluminum. The structural is just that, structural. The architectural is not as strong and us used for architectural, or decoration, windows, trim, etc. the square inside allows it to be used on outside corners, as a slider, and where ever a square corner is needed. The web of the structural gives it more strength. 

  

 Bobefx

     do not archive

 ---

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Bob

 If they are both 6061-T6, they are both the same  strength.

  

 The difference in geometric properties has very little effect in  overall strength.

  

 I treat them the same structurally.

  

 As you said, however, they are used in different  applications.

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 Randall J  Hebert

  

 Randall J Hebert  & Associates, Inc

 Consulting Civil / Structural  Engineers

 Lafayette, Louisiana

 PH  337-261-1976      -      FX 337-261-1977

  



   From:  owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob  Sturgis

Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:36 AM

To:  zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Spar Cap Extrusion...

 

  The  square one is called architectural extrusion, and the round web is called  structural aluminum. The structural is just that, structural. The architectural  is not as strong and us used for architectural, or decoration, windows, trim,  etc. the square inside allows it to be used on outside corners, as a slider, and  where ever a square corner is needed. The web of the structural gives it more  strength. 

  

 Bobefx

      do not archive

 -----  Original Message ----

From: SafeAirOne <safeairone(at)verizon.net>

To:  zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:13:57  AM

Subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...



-->  Zenith701801-List message posted by: "SafeAirOne" <safeairone(at)verizon.net (safeairone(at)verizon.net)>



Thanks!



...Here  are the profiles of the angles to which I refer:





Read this  topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189023#189023





Attachments:  



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List 

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 

available via the 

href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 

generous support! 

href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 

[/b][quote][b]

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Randall, 

 Put them in a vice and twist them, pound them, and the architectural will fail long before the structural. Them tell me they are the same. We use a lot of aluminum in the motion picture industry to build props, and some time a persons life depends on what we build. I would never use architectural aluminum any case. The web on the structural is much better than the square inside corner of the architectural. That is where the strength is.

 The reason one is called structural and the other is called architectural, is that they do not want you to use architectural for structural purposes, it will fail.

 By studio regulations we have all of our designs checked out by a structural engineer and they never approve the use of architectural aluminum in structures.

  

 Bobefx

  

 do not archive



 ---

ricklach

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Kernville, Calif.

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...

This is a very interesting conversation, but what is the factory providing? The factory is the decider. Can some one please take a look at their kit and provide that very important piece of information to us. I would if I had a kit but I do not.



Rick

dan(at)hillsgun.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Hi Rick: See my post from Yesterday. I talked to Zenith Yesterday and they

are providing .093 thickness with square inside corner, Dan.



--

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Rick,

1 x 1 x 1/8th extruded structural aluminum angle, 6061-t6, with a proper 

radius is available from Aircraft Spruce as p/n 03-48000. If the 

dimensions suit you, or if you need something that can be resized, the 

prices quoted are reasonable (if Zenith is not providing the angle with 

the radius).



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive

ricklach wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This is a very interesting conversation, but what is the factory providing? The factory is the decider. Can some one please take a look at their kit and provide that very important piece of information to us. I would if I had a kit but I do not.



 Rick





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189553#189553

ricklach

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Kernville, Calif.

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...

Thank You both Dan and Larry for your information.



Rick

SafeAirOne

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Manchester, NH

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...

 	  larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: 	
		  Rick,

1 x 1 x 1/8th extruded structural aluminum angle, 6061-t6, with a proper 

radius is available from Aircraft Spruce as p/n 03-48000. 	




Careful,  the plans (for the 701, at least) call for 3/4 x 3/4 angle.  Using 1 x 1 would likely create clearance issues with the rear ribs.



--Mark

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