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Nosewheel breakout force

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recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

I'm putting a 5x5 wheel/tire up front on my 6A and need to know what you folks are using for a nosewheel breakout force setting and how you are measuring it.



The 6A manual has a spec of 22-25 lbs measured at the axel bolt with a fish scale (IIRC).  Since that bolt will now be farther back (physics is our friend) the same spec would result in a greater torque at the swivel point...just trying to remember my High School math and physics lessons....



How are you doing it?



Thanks,

Ralph Capen

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

That's the same as what we're using.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Ralph E. Capen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm putting a 5x5 wheel/tire up front on my 6A and need to know what you folks are using for a nosewheel breakout force setting and how you are measuring it.

 

 The 6A manual has a spec of 22-25 lbs measured at the axel bolt with a fish scale (IIRC).  Since that bolt will now be farther back (physics is our friend) the same spec would result in a greater torque at the swivel point...just trying to remember my High School math and physics lessons....

 

 How are you doing it?

 

 Thanks,

 Ralph Capen

drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Ralph;



Don't know if this will help on the math issue.  Here's a good website 

for a torque calculator.



You should be able to measure your distances and calculate the torque 

needed to spec.  



http://www.norbar.com/Calculators/TorqueWrenchExtensionCalculator/tabid/70/Default.aspx



Fred



Ralph E. Capen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm putting a 5x5 wheel/tire up front on my 6A and need to know what you folks are using for a nosewheel breakout force setting and how you are measuring it.



 The 6A manual has a spec of 22-25 lbs measured at the axel bolt with a fish scale (IIRC).  Since that bolt will now be farther back (physics is our friend) the same spec would result in a greater torque at the swivel point...just trying to remember my High School math and physics lessons....



 How are you doing it?



 Thanks,

 Ralph Capen

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Thanks Tim!



--

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Neat tool....thanks



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

How good is the initial setup last? I recall Anh saying his needed to be retorqued afet a period of time due to wear in?



Rick 

40185

---

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Rick,



I had to re-torque after only about 25 hours.  I also noted another

RV-10 that obviously needed re-torquing (nosewheel freely swinging

around during a landing that I saw from the ground).  That plane had

about 35 hours on it at the time.



Other thing that I noted is that the initial grease infusion (Aeroshell

#5) didn't last very long - you could hear binding noises while turning

the nosewheel with the towbar.  I wound up taking things apart, cleaning

them up and then switching to a different type of grease which seems to

be working better.



Bob

N442PM (flying)



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

I have this item on my 'do-over list before flying'. I could not obtain 

the 22-25 lbs, IIRC it was either 17 - 35 depending on which face of the 

nut squared with the cotter pin. I think those Bellvue (?) washers are a 

little rough and I expect their surface gets 'polished' a bit initially. 

Anybody else have similar experience and a solution?



Deems Davis # 406

working on the last MOD (really!!!!!)

http://deemsrv10.com/



Rick Sked wrote:

[quote] 



 How good is the initial setup last? I recall Anh saying his needed to be retorqued afet a period of time due to wear in?



 Rick 

 40185

 ---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

I think this wearing in is just going to be a fact of life.

I would err on the high side, and go with 35lbs before I'd

go under 20.  I have retorqued mine now 2 or maybe it was

3 times.  The 3rd time it wasn't too low, but I wanted to

make sure it was going to always be 22 or more, and I ended

up at 35....and it worked fine.  So if I was doing it again

I'd probably start near 30 and let it wear in, and the

retorque after 20-25 hours and then again at 75.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

Deems Davis wrote:

[quote] 

 I have this item on my 'do-over list before flying'. I could not obtain 

 the 22-25 lbs, IIRC it was either 17 - 35 depending on which face of the 

 nut squared with the cotter pin. I think those Bellvue (?) washers are a 

 little rough and I expect their surface gets 'polished' a bit initially. 

 Anybody else have similar experience and a solution?

 Deems Davis # 406

 working on the last MOD (really!!!!!)

 http://deemsrv10.com/

 Rick Sked wrote:

> 

>

> How good is the initial setup last? I recall Anh saying his needed to 

> be retorqued afet a period of time due to wear in?

>

> Rick 40185

> ---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Deems Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have this item on my 'do-over list before flying'. I could not 

 obtain the 22-25 lbs, IIRC it was either 17 - 35 depending on which 

 face of the nut squared with the cotter pin. I think those Bellvue (?) 

They're 'belleville' or 'cupped' washers.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   washers are a little rough and I expect their surface gets 'polished' 

 a bit initially.

That's possible.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Anybody else have similar experience and a solution?

The same nose gear system is used on the little Grummans.  Go to 
	


http://www.sbw.org/nosestrut/ for a drawing.  It shows the correct 

orientation of the belleville washers (for my Grumman anyway).  

Conventional wisdom (for the Grummans) is to increase the 25 pound pull 

to 30 or 35.  This is where 'tighten until shimmy quits' but you still 

need to be able to horse it around if you don't have the towbar handy.



While we're here on the nosewheel subject ..... that cotter pin is 

terribly important ..... and you probably should use a mirror to inspect 

it as a part of your preflight.



As for the 'retighten' problem ..... remember that not only the 

belleville washers are getting some 'polishing' .... so is the strut 

bushing and flat washers ...... in other words ..... all the moving 

parts are subject to wearing in.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Deems Davis # 406

 working on the last MOD (really!!!!!)

 http://deemsrv10.com/

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Thanks Tim!



Deems



do not archive



Tim Olson wrote:

[quote] 



 I think this wearing in is just going to be a fact of life.

 I would err on the high side, and go with 35lbs before I'd

 go under 20.  I have retorqued mine now 2 or maybe it was

 3 times.  The 3rd time it wasn't too low, but I wanted to

 make sure it was going to always be 22 or more, and I ended

 up at 35....and it worked fine.  So if I was doing it again

 I'd probably start near 30 and let it wear in, and the

 retorque after 20-25 hours and then again at 75.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



 Deems Davis wrote:

> 

>

> I have this item on my 'do-over list before flying'. I could not 

> obtain the 22-25 lbs, IIRC it was either 17 - 35 depending on which 

> face of the nut squared with the cotter pin. I think those Bellvue 

> (?) washers are a little rough and I expect their surface gets 

> 'polished' a bit initially. Anybody else have similar experience and 

> a solution?

>

> Deems Davis # 406

> working on the last MOD (really!!!!!)

> http://deemsrv10.com/

>

> Rick Sked wrote:

>> 

>>

>> How good is the initial setup last? I recall Anh saying his needed 

>> to be retorqued afet a period of time due to wear in?

>>

>> Rick 40185

>>

>>

>> ---

wvu(at)ameritel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

I would check the initial torque as often as occasions lend themselves.  But 

agree w/ Tim at 25 and 75hrs.

Adding some more to Deems talking point, I let mine go pretty long in the 

beginning.  I think my initial check was at 75hrs and the torque was all the 

way down to zero. The consequence was some tear in the glass of the nose 

wheel pant due to the shopping cart wheel effect causing the pant to touch 

the rubber. This was first noticed around 45hrs.  The glass at that time was 

about 1/2in away from the tire. I since have increased to 3/4in.



BTW, I spent 14 hours by myself tending to the recent SB.  No cracks were 

found in the bulkhead.



Anh

N591VU-flying



---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

What type of grease, Bob?



On Jul 2, 2008, at 10:33 AM, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Rick,



 I had to re-torque after only about 25 hours.  I also noted another

 RV-10 that obviously needed re-torquing (nosewheel freely swinging

 around during a landing that I saw from the ground).  That plane had

 about 35 hours on it at the time.



 Other thing that I noted is that the initial grease infusion  

 (Aeroshell

 #5) didn't last very long - you could hear binding noises while  

 turning

 the nosewheel with the towbar.  I wound up taking things apart,  

 cleaning

 them up and then switching to a different type of grease which seems  

 to

 be working better.



 Bob

 N442PM (flying)

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Nosewheel breakout force

I switched to a heavy bearing grease with graphite in it.  It was recommended as tending to "stay put" better than the Aeroshell #5.  I got it at a local auto parts store and it's apparently widely used on farm equipment.



It may be that the #5 would work great and that for some reason either the grease didn't fully "flood" the assembly or that it somehow worked it's way out over the first 25 hours or so as things loosened up.  I noticed a strange sound when turning the nosewheel after about the first 25 hours and took things apart to investigate.  First thing I noticed was how loose the fork was from the "break in" of the belleville washers.  I found a little grease on the bushing but virtually none on the shaft.  It must have made it through the fitting since there was grease on the bushing and it also squeezed out the top when originally filled.  I also noticed a little mild surface rust on the shaft at that point.  I cleaned everything up, polished the shaft and switched to the heavier grease.  I've only got about 25 hours on the plane since then but it's clear that there is still grease in the assembly and no other issues.



I haven't heard of this in any other plane so it might be that somehow the assembly just didn't get lubed sufficiently the first time.  In any case, all seems well now but I'm watching it very closely.



Bob

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

I used Aeroshell #5 on mine on initial assembly, I'm not so sure there is a grease that can hold up to the brute force action of this type of nose wheel system, only good cleaning, greasing and maintenance will keep it working well. Maybe a marine grease (boat trailer bearings) that has a higher viscosity, film strength and moisture resistance. I'd like to know what Bob came up with. 



FWIW...to get the initial torque and get the nut to line up was on the lower scale of the pull test...my plans are to taxi test with lots of turns, then recheck and re-torque at that point. Don't forget the cotter pin.....would be a bear to land without the nose wheel, unless you had a crew of two and one could crawl back to the baggage compartment to offset the weight on the nose wheel.  



Rick S.

40185

do not archive

---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

My only concern is the graphite...which is abrasive by nature..wouldn't that cause more wear?



Rick S.

40185

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

I do know that I've run across info that graphite should definitely

not be used on aluminum.  I'm hoping that the fork isn't all

aluminum under that area.  I know you're not even supposed to

mark skins with pencils for that reason.  Not sure if in this

application it matters or not, but something worth researching.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rick Sked wrote:

[quote] 

 

 My only concern is the graphite...which is abrasive by nature..wouldn't that cause more wear?

 

 Rick S.

 40185

 ---

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: Nosewheel breakout force

Thanks to all who replied for the advice and additional information. I 

did receive one suggestion off-line that I think is worthy of mention to 

the list. And that was to do your own 'polishing' of the Bellvillle 

washers before installing them. i.e. Carefully use a piece of 

sandpaper/emory cloth or a belt sander to 'polish' a small (1/32" ?) 

flat one each of the washers where they contact one another, being 

careful to keep them even. I suspect that this will accomplish what the 

airplane does in the 1st 75- ? hours of operations.  If anyone is coming 

up on a conditional inspection, and  is planning on removing and 

regreasing these, it would be interesting so see a picture of what 

these  mating surfaces look like after so many hours.



Deems Davis # 406

Last big mod being installed, then off to paint shop next week

http://deemsrv10.com/

 	  Quote:

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Nosewheel breakout force

Good catch Tim!  I've always known about the pencil on aluminum thing but didn't think about the grease.  Granted, most of the surface is bronze bushing and steel shaft, but the fork aluminum is exposed between the upper and lower bushings.  I don't know if the grease has the same issues but will change to something else if I can't get positive confirmation that it's OK.  Too late to touch base with Van's until Monday...



For those with a lot more airframe hours than I've got, what are you using for grease in the nose fork assembly?  Does the grease utilization go down after the "break in" of the bellville washers?



Bob

N442PM (flying)

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