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RobHickman(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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After last week’s window install fiasco I talked to Lancair about their window install and decided to perform a glue test. Lancair has been using Hysol for “over 15 years without any problems” and believes that the Hysol is the only way to go. When I talked to the Hysol support they were not real positive about using it to bond acrylic windows and suggested that I do a test.
For the test I bonded two pieces of the left over front window two each other, they were sanded with 80 grit and clamped together and left to harden in the 100F sun. After 36 hours the parts bonded with Hysol easily pulled apart by hand, the parts bonded with three year old expired Weldon-10 could not be separated, even with a screw driver and hammer. The Hysol data does shows:
Curing - This adhesive may be cured for 5 to 7 days at >77°F/25°C to achieve normal performance. Accelerated cures up to 200°F/93°C (for small masses only) may be used as an alternative. For example, 1 hour at 180°F/82°C will give complete cure.
It has been very hot over the weekend and I find it hard to believe that it would have got a lot stronger in 5 days.
Why does it work for Lancair?
I made a trip to a local Lancair ES builder that just installed his windows to have a look. The Lancair windows are installed from the inside, have a 1 ½” wide joint for bonding and after bonding you layup two to three layers of fiberglass between the windows and fuselage. It looks to me like the windows would not come out even if you did not use any Hysol
So after all this I installed the windows using Weldon-10 and actually found that it was not that bad to work with and I don’t think I have any crazing in the acrylic.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
[quote][b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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Awesome that you got everything installed and like how it turned
out. As for the crazing, I'm not sure WHY people are having
crazing, but my guess is it's either too localized and too
strong of clamping pressure, or whatever other chemicals they
are using to clean and prep the area for bonding. Almost all
solvents are no-no's on the acrylic, and my guess is that
some people are using acetone, windex, or any number of other
thinners or products to degrease....and that's where the
problem starts.
Your info regarding the width of the bond area on the Lancairs
and the use of Hysol also goes hand in hand with info others
have provided, that there just isn't enough of a lip for
bonding to use some of the other products unless they have
similar bond strength.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RobHickman(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | After last week’s window install fiasco I talked to Lancair about their
window install and decided to perform a glue test. Lancair has been
using Hysol for “over 15 years without any problems” and believes that
the Hysol is the only way to go. When I talked to the Hysol support
they were not real positive about using it to bond acrylic windows and
suggested that I do a test.
For the test I bonded two pieces of the left over front window two each
other, they were sanded with 80 grit and clamped together and left to
harden in the 100F sun. After 36 hours the parts bonded with Hysol
easily pulled apart by hand, the parts bonded with three year old
expired Weldon-10 could not be separated, even with a screw driver and
hammer. The Hysol data does shows:
Curing - This adhesive may be cured for 5 to 7 days at >77°F/25°C to
achieve normal performance. Accelerated cures up to 200°F/93°C (for
small masses only) may be used as an alternative. For example, 1 hour at
180°F/82°C will give complete cure.
It has been very hot over the weekend and I find it hard to believe that
it would have got a lot stronger in 5 days.
Why does it work for Lancair?
I made a trip to a local Lancair ES builder that just installed his
windows to have a look. The Lancair windows are installed from the
inside, have a 1 ½” wide joint for bonding and after bonding you layup
two to three layers of fiberglass between the windows and fuselage. It
looks to me like the windows would not come out even if you did not use
any Hysol
So after all this I installed the windows using Weldon-10 and actually
found that it was not that bad to work with and I don’t think I have any
crazing in the acrylic.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used
cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>.
*
*
|
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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|
Hysol comes by a plethora of product numbers (each application specific). Some on this list will curse Hysol and swear by Weldon products (they might even be first-time builders). Plastic aircraft builders have a vastly deeper reservoir of proven products than even the most prolific RV builder - David Lewis. RV builders (with no offense intended) are still in the dark ages when it comes to proper adhesives for specific missions with plastic products.
RV factory techniques of inserting the windows from outside the pressure vessel on the low pressure side are not the same as inserting the window from inside the pressure vessel. We as RV builders do not yet have an approved Turbo or Pressurized RV-10 but the differences become self evident with study. Just because the factory designed it outside does not make it better.
A close friend lost his Lancair windows (both original and replacement panes) at 25,000 feet - twice. After the group humiliation, the humor came at his use of the wrong product and failure to properly prep the plastic substrate following clear and concise directions with proven chemicals. There is a valuable kernel of knowledge somewhere in that pile of straw and by product. Talk to veteran plastic plane builders. There accident rate comes from stupid operators and not poor plastic adhesion techniques.
When the correct numbered product is used with the correct technique, Crazing is never (or seldom a result) and installation failure is reduced (like somewhere down around my chance of a winning lottery ticket). Maybe Dave Saylor can pipe in on the correct Hysol numbers and clarity here. Hysol 9360 when properly stored, surface prepped, and properly applied will give repeatedly great results.
John Cox
N49CX RV-10
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:02 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install
After last week’s window install fiasco I talked to Lancair about their window install and decided to perform a glue test. Lancair has been using Hysol for “over 15 years without any problems” and believes that the Hysol is the only way to go. When I talked to the Hysol support they were not real positive about using it to bond acrylic windows and suggested that I do a test.
For the test I bonded two pieces of the left over front window two each other, they were sanded with 80 grit and clamped together and left to harden in the 100F sun. After 36 hours the parts bonded with Hysol easily pulled apart by hand, the parts bonded with three year old expired Weldon-10 could not be separated, even with a screw driver and hammer. The Hysol data does shows:
Curing - This adhesive may be cured for 5 to 7 days at >77°F/25°C to achieve normal performance. Accelerated cures up to 200°F/93°C (for small masses only) may be used as an alternative. For example, 1 hour at 180°F/82°C will give complete cure.
It has been very hot over the weekend and I find it hard to believe that it would have got a lot stronger in 5 days.
Why does it work for Lancair?
I made a trip to a local Lancair ES builder that just installed his windows to have a look. The Lancair windows are installed from the inside, have a 1 ½” wide joint for bonding and after bonding you layup two to three layers of fiberglass between the windows and fuselage. It looks to me like the windows would not come out even if you did not use any Hysol
So after all this I installed the windows using Weldon-10 and actually found that it was not that bad to work with and I don’t think I have any crazing in the acrylic.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
| Quote: | | _-============================================================_-= - The RV10-List Email Forum -_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,_-= Photoshare, and much much more:_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List_-============================================================_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com_-============================================================_-= - List Contribution Web Site -_-= Thank you for your generous support!_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin._-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution_-============================================================ |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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I think the big thing folks are "glazing" over here is that the weld-on CHEMICALLY reacts with acrylic and so happens to bond to the fiberglass. It uses this reaction with acrylic to achieve is bond strength which is substantial. The epoxy product will never create the bond since it is not REACTING with the acrylic. I see the weld-on as exactly that ...a plastic/acrylic weld. Epoxy is not doing that to the acrylic.
-Chris Lucas
#40072 sticking with weld-on in this application
[quote] ---
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Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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Piping in:
We've had generally good success with Hysol, but not a perfect record. One IV-P windsheild had to be re-bonded after it popped out, similar to Rob's experience (which I think we should refer to from now on as "The Hickman Incident", unless there's already a better one  .
Rob and John are right, Lancair uses a much different method: installed from the inside, then laminated over. The plex is thereby trapped in a deep groove. You could probably replace the Hysol with bubble gum and get good results (very, very high quality bubble gum).
And, we've used at least three diffrent formulas. Now we're using 9360 (white-ish beige) as recommended by Lancair, but we've also used a bright blue and a dark green, as formerly recommended. For general non-structural glueing we often use small tubes of "EP120", yet another Hysol product, from McMaster-Carr. There are probably 100 different Hysol formulas.
Per Lancair's instructions, we mix in a little flox. We use 120 grit to rough up the edges. This is on the recommendation of Harold Bunyi, who some of you know from our classes. He's good with glue.
The point of sanding the edges is to get rid of the outer, less reactive layer of acrylic. Accoring to the Hysol instructions:
"Surface abrasion can also remove other surface contaminants as well as weak, low molecular weight components which can be concentratred at the surface due to their exclusion during solidification or crystallization of some polymers. Also during solidification of both thermoplastic (RV-10 windows) and thermoset materials, there is often an orientation of the more polar groups toward the interior, leaving a concentration of lower polarity, lower energy groups on the surface. Abrasion can open up access to the more energetic polymer interior".
Now, I'm in over my head when it gets to the part about molecular weight. But I'm sure that what this is basically saying is that Hysol won't stick well to the finished surface of Plexiglas. You have to get rid of the outer "skin" to get to the reactive part of the plex that will adhere well.
I don't know why Rob's test pieces failed. And I'm sure Weld-On will do a fine job. As usual, deviating from the plans almost always makes it harder. I used Hysol for my windshield joggle, with a thin overlay. So far so good after 150 hours and a couple of torture tests. But I haven't *tried* to remove it. Maybe I should...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 6:56 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install
Hysol comes by a plethora of product numbers (each application specific). Some on this list will curse Hysol and swear by Weldon products (they might even be first-time builders). Plastic aircraft builders have a vastly deeper reservoir of proven products than even the most prolific RV builder - David Lewis. RV builders (with no offense intended) are still in the dark ages when it comes to proper adhesives for specific missions with plastic products.
RV factory techniques of inserting the windows from outside the pressure vessel on the low pressure side are not the same as inserting the window from inside the pressure vessel. We as RV builders do not yet have an approved Turbo or Pressurized RV-10 but the differences become self evident with study. Just because the factory designed it outside does not make it better.
A close friend lost his Lancair windows (both original and replacement panes) at 25,000 feet - twice. After the group humiliation, the humor came at his use of the wrong product and failure to properly prep the plastic substrate following clear and concise directions with proven chemicals. There is a valuable kernel of knowledge somewhere in that pile of straw and by product. Talk to veteran plastic plane builders. There accident rate comes from stupid operators and not poor plastic adhesion techniques.
When the correct numbered product is used with the correct technique, Crazing is never (or seldom a result) and installation failure is reduced (like somewhere down around my chance of a winning lottery ticket). Maybe Dave Saylor can pipe in on the correct Hysol numbers and clarity here. Hysol 9360 when properly stored, surface prepped, and properly applied will give repeatedly great results.
John Cox
N49CX RV-10
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:02 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install
After last week’s window install fiasco I talked to Lancair about their window install and decided to perform a glue test. Lancair has been using Hysol for “over 15 years without any problems” and believes that the Hysol is the only way to go. When I talked to the Hysol support they were not real positive about using it to bond acrylic windows and suggested that I do a test.
For the test I bonded two pieces of the left over front window two each other, they were sanded with 80 grit and clamped together and left to harden in the 100F sun. After 36 hours the parts bonded with Hysol easily pulled apart by hand, the parts bonded with three year old expired Weldon-10 could not be separated, even with a screw driver and hammer. The Hysol data does shows:
Curing - This adhesive may be cured for 5 to 7 days at >77°F/25°C to achieve normal performance. Accelerated cures up to 200°F/93°C (for small masses only) may be used as an alternative. For example, 1 hour at 180°F/82°C will give complete cure.
It has been very hot over the weekend and I find it hard to believe that it would have got a lot stronger in 5 days.
Why does it work for Lancair?
I made a trip to a local Lancair ES builder that just installed his windows to have a look. The Lancair windows are installed from the inside, have a 1 ½” wide joint for bonding and after bonding you layup two to three layers of fiberglass between the windows and fuselage. It looks to me like the windows would not come out even if you did not use any Hysol
So after all this I installed the windows using Weldon-10 and actually found that it was not that bad to work with and I don’t think I have any crazing in the acrylic.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
| Quote: | | [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/b] |
0123456789
��~��,g�� [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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|
Thanks Dave, you have said it so well.
JC
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:09 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install
Piping in:
We've had generally good success with Hysol, but not a perfect record. One IV-P windsheild had to be re-bonded after it popped out, similar to Rob's experience (which I think we should refer to from now on as "The Hickman Incident", unless there's already a better one .
Rob and John are right, Lancair uses a much different method: installed from the inside, then laminated over. The plex is thereby trapped in a deep groove. You could probably replace the Hysol with bubble gum and get good results (very, very high quality bubble gum).
And, we've used at least three diffrent formulas. Now we're using 9360 (white-ish beige)as recommended by Lancair, but we've also used a bright blue and a dark green, as formerly recommended. For general non-structural glueing we often use small tubes of "EP120", yet another Hysol product, from McMaster-Carr. There are probably 100 different Hysol formulas.
Per Lancair's instructions, we mix in a little flox. We use 120 grit to rough up the edges. This is on the recommendation of Harold Bunyi, who some of you know from our classes. He's good with glue.
The point of sanding the edges is to get rid of the outer, less reactive layer of acrylic. Accoring to the Hysol instructions:
"Surface abrasion can also remove other surface contaminants as well as weak, low molecular weight components which can be concentratred at the surface due to their exclusion during solidification or crystallization of some polymers. Also during solidification of both thermoplastic (RV-10 windows)and thermoset materials, there is often an orientation of the more polar groups toward the interior, leaving a concentration of lower polarity, lower energy groups on the surface. Abrasion can open up access to the more energetic polymer interior".
Now, I'm in over my head when it gets to the part about molecular weight. But I'm sure that what this is basically saying is that Hysol won't stick well to the finished surface of Plexiglas. You have to get rid of the outer "skin" to get to the reactive part of the plex that will adhere well.
I don't know why Rob's test pieces failed. And I'm sure Weld-On will do a fine job. As usual, deviating from the plans almost always makes it harder. I used Hysol for my windshield joggle, with a thin overlay. So far so good after 150 hours and a couple of torture tests. But I haven't *tried* to remove it. Maybe I should...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 6:56 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install
Hysol comes by a plethora of product numbers (each application specific). Some on this list will curse Hysol and swear by Weldon products (they might even be first-time builders). Plastic aircraft builders have a vastly deeper reservoir of proven products than even the most prolific RV builder - David Lewis. RV builders (with no offense intended) are still in the dark ages when it comes to proper adhesives for specific missions with plastic products.
RV factory techniques of inserting the windows from outside the pressure vessel on the low pressure side are not the same as inserting the window from inside the pressure vessel. We as RV builders do not yet have an approved Turbo or Pressurized RV-10 but the differences become self evident with study. Just because the factory designed it outside does not make it better.
A close friend lost his Lancair windows (both original and replacement panes) at 25,000 feet - twice. After the group humiliation, the humor came at his use of the wrong product and failure to properly prep the plastic substrate following clear and concise directions with proven chemicals. There is a valuable kernel of knowledge somewhere in that pile of straw and by product. Talk to veteran plastic plane builders. There accident rate comes from stupid operators and not poor plastic adhesion techniques.
When the correct numbered product is used with the correct technique, Crazing is never (or seldom a result) and installation failure is reduced (like somewhere down around my chance of a winning lottery ticket). Maybe Dave Saylor can pipe in on the correct Hysol numbers and clarity here. Hysol 9360 when properly stored, surface prepped, and properly applied will give repeatedly great results.
John Cox
N49CX RV-10
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:02 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install
After last week’s window install fiasco I talked to Lancair about their window install and decided to perform a glue test. Lancair has been using Hysol for “over 15 years without any problems” and believes that the Hysol is the only way to go. When I talked to the Hysol support they were not real positive about using it to bond acrylic windows and suggested that I do a test.
For the test I bonded two pieces of the left over front window two each other, they were sanded with 80 grit and clamped together and left to harden in the 100F sun. After 36 hours the parts bonded with Hysol easily pulled apart by hand, the parts bonded with three year old expired Weldon-10 could not be separated, even with a screw driver and hammer. The Hysol data does shows:
Curing - This adhesive may be cured for 5 to 7 days at >77°F/25°C to achieve normal performance. Accelerated cures up to 200°F/93°C (for small masses only) may be used as an alternative. For example, 1 hour at 180°F/82°C will give complete cure.
It has been very hot over the weekend and I find it hard to believe that it would have got a lot stronger in 5 days.
Why does it work for Lancair?
I made a trip to a local Lancair ES builder that just installed his windows to have a look. The Lancair windows are installed from the inside, have a 1 ½” wide joint for bonding and after bonding you layup two to three layers of fiberglass between the windows and fuselage. It looks to me like the windows would not come out even if you did not use any Hysol
So after all this I installed the windows using Weldon-10 and actually found that it was not that bad to work with and I don’t think I have any crazing in the acrylic.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution |
��~��, g�� | Quote: | | _-============================================================_-= - The RV10-List Email Forum -_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,_-= Photoshare, and much much more:_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List_-============================================================_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com_-============================================================_-= - List Contribution Web Site -_-= Thank you for your generous support!_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin._-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution_-============================================================ |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
|
|
Hysol 9360 when properly stored, surface prepped, and properly applied will give repeatedly great results.
| Quote: |
John Cox
N49CX RV-10 |
I used brand new Hysol 9360 from Lancair (with hardener it is blue) sanded the test pieces with 60 grit, blown off with air and used a digital scale accurate to .1 grams. The only thing I did not try is actually waiting for 5-7 days.
I should also add that the Hysol phone support was not real positive about using it to bond acrylic.
John you should borrow my left over Hysol and actually do your own test just in case I missed something.
Rob Hickman
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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seipel(at)seznam.cz
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install |
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|
I wonder if your Hysol was bad/old or something. I used the blue and
haven't had any issues yet. I'll be home this weekend and I'll bang on
my windows a bit and see what happens. For what it's worth, when I did
mine, I sanded with 40 grit and then wiped with 100% alcohol before
bonding it. I left it clamped for over a week because I was having a
hard time keeping the garage at 70 degrees due to the outside temp being
low.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
RobHickman(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Hysol 9360 when properly stored, surface prepped, and properly applied
will give repeatedly great results.
John Cox
N49CX RV-10
I used brand new Hysol 9360 from Lancair (with hardener it is blue)
sanded the test pieces with 60 grit, blown off with air and used a
digital scale accurate to .1 grams. The only thing I did not try is
actually waiting for 5-7 days.
I should also add that the Hysol phone support was not real positive
about using it to bond acrylic.
John you should borrow my left over Hysol and actually do your own
test just in case I missed something.
Rob Hickman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used
cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>.
*
*
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