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geir_olav(at)c2i.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

I only have about 100 landings on my Kitfox IV (speedster), this is only on soft field (grass). I am planning a trip to a field with hard surface (asphalt) next weekend, but I am a little concerned about that, since I have never been flying a taildragger on hard surface. Can I expect a big difference in yaw control or what can I expect. There is people that says it is much more difficult, and other do not see any difference. As long it is a calm day, with not much wind it should not be a problem, or?   

I am only used to a crappy airfield of about 1000ft grass, where we have big trees in one end of the runway, and I have fly in a constant bank from the north to land (due to some houses we not are allowed to fly over)  

   

   

Hope somebody can tell if there is a big difference between asphalt and grass with a kitfox.  

   

Thanks  

   

Geir Olav  

Kitfox IV speedster  

Jab2200.  

   

   

       [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

I haven't found all that much difference between the two IF you're  

heading straight down the runway on the pavement. Grass is more  

forgiving than hard surface, of course, but I've only had one bad  

landing on the hard stuff, and that was during a reported 19-35 knot,  

90-degree crosswind.



By the way, during my first solo cross-country trip, while coming in  

for the landing, I suddenly realized that not only was this my first  

solo cross-country flight, but my first solo pavement landing....and  

the wind was at 60 degrees to the runway and about 10 mph as I  

recall. The wind was enough to turn the airplane around (weathercock  

it) into the wind after I fueled it.



Disclaimer: I'm not a CFI, nor do I play one on the TV...: )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/541 hrs





On Jun 29, 2008, at 6:16 PM, Geir Olav Øien wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I only have about 100 landings on my Kitfox IV (speedster), this is  

 only on soft field (grass). I am planning a trip to a field with  

 hard surface (asphalt) next weekend, but I am a little concerned  

 about that, since I have never been flying a taildragger on hard  

 surface. Can I expect a big difference in yaw control or what can I  

 expect. There is people that says it is much more difficult, and  

 other do not see any difference. As long it is a calm day, with not  

 much wind it should not be a problem, or?



 I am only used to a crappy airfield of about 1000ft grass, where we  

 have big trees in one end of the runway, and I have fly in a  

 constant bank from the north to land (due to some houses we not are  

 allowed to fly over)



 Hope somebody can tell if there is a big difference between asphalt  

 and grass with a kitfox.



 Thanks



 Geir Olav



 Kitfox IV speedster



 Jab2200.



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 forums.matronics.com_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Geir 

 

The only difference is that you have to make sure that you line up your plane with no yaw while landing. Grass, water and ice is very forgiving and tends to make us all a bit lazy as if you land a little yawed the wheels will skid until you line up. On a tarmac runway there is no skid and if you land yawed you will get  a very loud "chirp" and in worst case scenario you will overly stress your undercarriage. 

 

Once you are running straight it's the same as grass. 

 

Just make sure you are properly aligned with the runway and you will have no problems..

 

 Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Geir Olav Øien <geir_olav(at)c2i.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

30/06/2008 10:59 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass 

     

 

 

 

I only have about 100 landings on my Kitfox IV (speedster), this is only on soft field (grass). I am planning a trip to a field with hard surface (asphalt) next weekend, but I am a little concerned about that, since I have never been flying a taildragger on hard surface. Can I expect a big difference in yaw control or what can I expect. There is people that says it is much more difficult, and other do not see any difference. As long it is a calm day, with not much wind it should not be a problem, or?  

I am only used to a crappy airfield of about 1000ft grass, where we have big trees in one end of the runway, and I have fly in a constant bank from the north to land (due to some houses we not are allowed to fly over) 

  

  

Hope somebody can tell if there is a big difference between asphalt and grass with a kitfox. 

  

Thanks 

  

Geir Olav 

Kitfox IV speedster 

Jab2200. 

  

  

[b]

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Geir, 

  

 Before attempting to land on hard surfaces, be sure to check the toe-in and  camber of your landing gear. The hard surfaces are unforgiving if the toe-in  and/or camber are very are far off. I don't know what landing gear you are  using, original or Grove or something else, but the Grove web site will give you  the idea of how to check your gear.

  

 http://www.groveaircraft.com/accessories.html

  

 Roger

  

 [quote]   ---

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Geir, I learned my squirrely bird on hard surface, then  transitioned to grass... Very important, check air pressure in your tires if  they are the atv style tires there should only be 6 to 8 psi in the tires.   Took the squirrely rt out of my 4 when I lowered air pressure. I also suggest  only 3 pointing until you get good so you wont risk side loading a tire trying  to main wheel land. It's not that hard, just dance left and right on them rudder  pedals when the tail gets on the ground so she wont break around backwards on  you. 

 Steve Bennett Durham NC



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

A Tail dragger is much harder on pavement then on grass.  If you are even slightly yawed, which you will be, the tires will grab the pavement instantly and jerk you sideways.   The grass gives a nice smooth transition for a slightly yawed condition, the pavement will not.   Even when you are on the ground, if you are fast, there will be no give like the grass, it will be much easier to ground loop on pavement.   Its very doable, just be ready for it, pavement is much harder in a tail dragger.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Then some of us have never been on grass and don't know better.

   

  Pete

  



JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 



A Tail dragger is much harder on pavement then on grass. If you are even slightly yawed, which you will be, the tires will grab the pavement instantly and jerk you sideways. The grass gives a nice smooth transition for a slightly yawed condition, the pavement will not. Even when you are on the ground, if you are fast, there will be no give like the grass, it will be much easier to ground loop on pavement. Its very doable, just be ready for it, pavement is much harder in a tail dragger.



Mike



--------

"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb [quote][b]

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Come on guys C paved is not hard to land a tail dragger on!! I fly on both and find both just as nice.  As a matter of fact C I learned to fly the Fox from a paved runway and had no problems C and been doing it for 4 years now and no ground loops.

  

 Ray

   

 Date: Fri C 4 Jul 2008 15:16:44 -0700

From: apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net

Subject: Re: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Then some of us have never been on grass and don't know better.

  

 Pete

 



JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 



A Tail dragger is much harder on pavement then on grass. If you are even slightly yawed C which you will be C the tires will grab the pavement instantly and jerk you sideways. The grass gives a nice smooth transition for a slightly yawed condition C the pavement will not. Even when you are on the ground C if you are fast C there will be no give like the grass C it will be much easier to ground loop on pavement. Its very doable C just be ready for it C pavement is much harder in a tail dragger.



Mike



--------

"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb  	  Quote: 	
		  



 target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	
It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. Check out the i’m Talkathon.  [quote][b]

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Yep!  And in the 46 years I’ve been a pilot,  I’ve never had a Kitfox, J-3, BC-12D, PA 14, PA 18, C-140, C-170, C-180, C-185, or Maule M6-235, jerk me any direction on pavement, gravel, grass, mud or snow.  

I’ve lost control of a couple of them back when I first started flying, and that was from mistakes I made, not the aircraft.  

John Hart  

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen

 Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 5:17 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass  

  

     

Then some of us have never been on grass and don't know better.  

    

   

    

Pete  

    



 

 JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:  

  [quote]  

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 

 

 A Tail dragger is much harder on pavement then on grass. If you are even slightly yawed, which you will be, the tires will grab the pavement instantly and jerk you sideways. The grass gives a nice smooth transition for a slightly yawed condition, the pavement will not. Even when you are on the ground, if you are fast, there will be no give like the grass, it will be much easier to ground loop on pavement. Its very doable, just be ready for it, pavement is much harder in a tail dragger.

 

 Mike

 

 --------

 "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

 

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Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

The deal landing on hard surface is staying on the rudders and  flying it even after its planted on the ground. One wheel may come up, but just  keep her pointed down the center. It truly does take some getting used to but  very doable if you know your plane. SB  Durham  NC



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

I think this myth about taildragger's on pavement is perpetrated by 

those that want to scare new pilots. I always heard taildraggers were

evil, til I learned to fly them. I keep hearing about taildraggers 

being wicked on pavement and it is simply not the case either.



The ONLY problems I find with pavement is when I have the 8.50x6's 

on my plane and land in gusty conditions, then there's always a bit

of a hairy moment at touchdown as it tends to weave a lot. Depends

on the wind.



Jeff

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

It's a combination of the the wind, the field,  the airplane and the pilot, Jeff. IMHO, these things are true about taildraggers: 1) Some are more difficult to control than others. A few have been truly "wicked" (e.g. ME 109), 2) They do require more attention on take-off and landing than "nose pushers," 3) Complacent or poorly trained pilots can and do get burned by this characteristic, 4) Grass is more forgiving than pavement.  

  

But you're right that none of this is cause to be scared of taildraggers, rather, only to be respectful of the airplane's characteristics and the pilot's limitations in light of the existing conditions. 

  

Marco Menezes N99KX 

Model 2 582-90 C-Box



--- On Sat, 7/5/08, n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 [quote]From: n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 11:33 AM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>  I think this myth about taildragger's on pavement is perpetrated by  those that want to scare new pilots. I always heard taildraggers were evil, til I learned to fly them. I keep hearing about taildraggers  being wicked on pavement and it is simply not the case either.  The ONLY problems I find with pavement is when I have the 8.50x6's  on my plane and land in gusty conditions, then there's always a bit of a hairy moment at touchdown as it tends to weave a lot. Depends on the wind.  Jeff     Read this topic online here:  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191316#191316                [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

None of the tail dragger stuff is a Myth, some tail draggers are harder than others, but they all exhibit the same tendency to swap ends on the ground.  Its a matter of physics, is most of the weight is behind the main gear, it will want to swap ends.   There is a very good reason they started putting nosewheels on airplanes.  There is also a very good reason that the vast majority of training airplanes sold over the past 40 years have been nosewheel planes.



To tell guys that taildraggers don't have any of these bad qualities is just a disservice to them.   If you are in doubt, just go look up the ground loop statistics for tail dragger airplanes, it happens to many good pilots.   I land on pavement in a taildragger, and it does not scare me, but I know darn well it is not the same as grass, and that I had better be more careful than when I am on grass.   We should not try to impress new pilots with our superman abilities, we need to give them good advice and warnings on what might present a difficult situation to them.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

In a message dated 7/5/2008 9:08:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  To tell    guys that taildraggers don't have any of these bad qualities is just a    disservice to them. 	


 

 Mike, VERY well said... They are a lot of fun though.  To  be able to master something that others sometimes find difficult make us a  "notch" above...    Most of us here have flown tricycle and its now  easy... I love my twitchy taildragger...  SB  Durham  NC.



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Tail dragger's are tough.  But I have to say the worse part of the dragger is the vis. over the right side while taxi.  This is a Bxxxx, and sure you can swerve left to right, but when you are on a skinny taxi way, that's not doable at all.  Must be why I chose to do an RV7A.  I want to see on the ground.  Wouldn't give up the Fox for anything else though.  Guess I'll be keeping my little sweetheart.  But when it comes to getting somewhere fast, that RV's going to be sweet.  



Getting to the subject.  I find the grass easier to land on, to a point.  The point being that sure you don't get the grabby landings like the asphalt but those bumps, oh Cxxx, they can sure knock you around, I find I need to dance on the rudder pedals more landing on the sod with bumps than I ever need to on the asphalt. I mix my landings up about 50/50.  So far this year I've done about 2000 landings on the sod, likewise on the asphalt.  Both are nonevents for me.  Even on landings of gust to 20 variable.  That's 2000 landings no mistake.  I love t&g's.  That's where the fun of flying is.  I generally put 6000 landings on my tires, so I put a set on each year.  I find the worse situation is brand new tires, Oh man! talk about grabby tires, you better be on the rudder for those.  I find that doing wheel landings on the Sod will cure those babies the best.  Get some of that dirt in the rubber.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Let's see if I got this right.  2000 landings on sod, and the same number on 

asphalt.  That sounds like over 20 landings per day each and every day.   I 

don't think I ever made more than five or six landings in a day and those 

days were during the annual Idaho back country gig.  I always liked to think 

that about one landing per hour of flight time was about right.  Guess to 

each his own.



do not archive



Lowell

---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Yup,

I fly every day.  Last year I had 420 flights.  Many times I just stay in the pattern, I can do a t&g every minute, sometimes less than that.  I'll run over to the international (class c airspace) which is my favorite hang out and do most of my work. It's amazing how the controllers get when I call for inbound.  AFter all they get some good counts for me, so they accommodate me as much as they can.  Most the time I'm over there when the traffic is high, usually an airplane every 4 miles stacked up, I'll be running in between the traffic, very fun.  I know the controllers over there very well and am told that I'm the only one they will let fly the way I do, very short , close and inside.  The reason is, they can trust me to hold the line right to the fars.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Yeah, that's roughly the same number I came up with, Lowell...sounds  

like another candidate for "I never leave the pattern"... :  )

Took me a year and a half to get my 1000th landing, 'cause I like to  

fly once I'm up there....like you said, Lowell...to each his own, I  

guess.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/545 hrs

do not archive



On Jul 6, 2008, at 5:36 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 Let's see if I got this right.  2000 landings on sod, and the same  

 number on asphalt.  That sounds like over 20 landings per day each  

 and every day.   I don't think I ever made more than five or six  

 landings in a day and those days were during the annual Idaho back  

 country gig.  I always liked to think that about one landing per  

 hour of flight time was about right.  Guess to each his own.



 do not archive



 Lowell

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Last weekend I had 3 take offs and 3 landings. It  only took 8.5 hours on my first flight. Then 3 take offs and 3 landings in 7  hours on the way home. I went to see mom and pop at Venice Fla from Raliegh NC.  Good trip, lots of swampy marshland in Georgia. My little plane with 2 on board  and 900 hrs on my 912 never missed a lick... Oh ya, only my first take off and  last landing were on turf. My home airport is turf. GPS said 666 miles there,  and 673 miles home.  Have a great week guys.  Steve  Bennett   Durham NC  classic 4  912



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox on hard surface compared to grass

Say what you want,

I fly away from the pattern all the time.  I went to Arlington last year, the kitfox flyin, down to richland, to aurora oregon.  Just to name a few.  When I fly long distances I hit every runway along the way, I think it's cool to try out new patterns.  When I went to arlington I went into wenatchee for breakfast then on to arlington.  On the way home i went into cle elum, now that airport was like a ghost town with winds in the 30's mph.  I had to dodge holes in the asphalt on role out.  Don't you dare call me a pattern boy, no way.  But when the weather is bad and most of you stay on the couch and watch tv, well I'm up there in the pattern, why because there is a big hole and the only open spot is right over the airport.  I spend 30 minutes in pattern and do 30 touch and go's big deal, the rest of the flight I'm running through the mountain and a few trees at about 20ft off.  I'm putting an RV together because I'm a working boy and can't spend a week going down to california.  I only have a weekend.



since you like to make fun, here's mine.  I think you boys that fly a high number of hours and low amount of landings are afraid to land.  I think you pray before each landing.  How's that.

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