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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and am wondering how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a bit.   Is the Kitfox docile enough in a spin that anyone does it in a regular basis ?  I used to spin my Cessna 150 Aerobat all the time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever heading I wanted.  Does the Kitfox compare to a Cessna in a Spin ?



I also saw this video on the Kitfox website of a Kitfox doing aerobatics.  Anyone do loops and rolls on a regular basis ?   I am not looking to do any crazy, or extreme aerobatics, or even near the ground, I'm to chicken for that !   I would like to do the occasional Loop and Roll once in a while...  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I have a friend who regularly spins his Series 5 (IO-240) he says

it spins fast. I think he reads the list.



Jeff

vft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

We used to do some acro in N24ZM (IO-240 powered Series 5) Rolls were the most fun. Loops were good too but you had to watch the speed at the exit (all the way back on the power). We did some spins early on in it as well. It would really get going after 2 full turns but would recover within 1 turn using the normal recovery technique. All this being said, PLEASE, PLEASE do not try and teach this to yourself and be very careful doing any acro in the Kitfox. It is a great flying airplane that is capable of some acro but it is NOT an aerobatic airplane. Airplanes that are intended for acro are much stronger than the Kitfox. While is is possible to stay well within the Kitfox's limits while doing acro you can easily exceed them if you botch a maneuver. 

 

 Sermon over

 

   Danny Melnik

 F1 N14ZM

 Rocket Factory

 Melbourne, FL

 

 

 --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I just started to do some 90° bank, 180° turns in my IV, and that's  

enough to get my attention. I don't think I'll try anything more  

severe than this without a G-meter....or maybe I should consult my  

flight instructor before even thinking about any more of this  

behavior. I'd much rather put long hours on long flights than to  

"wear out" the plane doing aerobatics.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/545 hrs





On Jul 11, 2008, at 1:01 AM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and  

 am wondering how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a  

 bit.   Is the Kitfox docile enough in a spin that anyone does it in  

 a regular basis ?  I used to spin my Cessna 150 Aerobat all the  

 time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever heading I  

 wanted.  Does the Kitfox compare to a Cessna in a Spin ?



 I also saw this video on the Kitfox website of a Kitfox doing  

 aerobatics.  Anyone do loops and rolls on a regular basis ?   I am  

 not looking to do any crazy, or extreme aerobatics, or even near  

 the ground, I'm to chicken for that !   I would like to do the  

 occasional Loop and Roll once in a while...



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192229#192229

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Don't worry, I am not going to go out and do anything stupid !   I have hundreds of aerobatics hours in a Cessna Aerobat.  Pretty tame as far as aerobatic planes go, but man it was a lot of fun    



I can easily keep maneuvers under 3 G positive and -1 negative.  I am just wondering if people were doing this much or not.   I know the plane is rated for +4 ,  but I also wonder how it would stand up to +3 on a repeated basis ?



Spins are a different story, its not the G's that get you, its getting out of the spin..  The Cessna 150's spin is so docile, and comes out so positively, that I could come out of the spin on the heading I wanted within 10 degrees.  Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin.   One full turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!!



I am looking at building the Kitfox 7 Super Sport with Rotax 912-S



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 I just started to do some 90° bank, 180° turns in my IV


	


.. Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys!

What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twin engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training.

Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft.

.. how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't get it.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

vft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

One must remember that each of our aircraft (although built from a similar collection of parts) is unique unto itself. A 912 powered 7 Super Sport would most likely spin differently than my old Series 5 with the IO-240. It would have a lot less weight at the extreme ends of the aircarft and be a lot lighter overal.  Acro is fun, just be careful. 

 

   Danny Melnik

 F1 N14ZM

 Rocket Factory

 Melbourne, FL

 

 

 --

gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Mike, during my phase 1 of the 40hr fly-off I did spins and aileron (flaperon) rolls and logged them in my log book to satisfy the FAA in case I want to do it on a regular basis after signoff. Both were no problems. Just make sure your CG is somewhere in the middle. I did read up on how to do them first. I never did them since thou.

   

  Herb Gottelt, M4-1200, 912UL



JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 



I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and am wondering how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a bit. Is the Kitfox docile enough in a spin that anyone does it in a regular basis ? I used to spin my Cessna 150 Aerobat all the time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever heading I wanted. [quote][b]

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

JetPilot Mike sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin. 

One full turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!!


	


Danny is exactly right, every home-built airplane is different.  I 

spun my Model IV-1200 Speedster many times but it was difficult to 

get it to stay IN the spin for more than 3/4 turn or so.  I had to 

hold full rudder into the spin and the stick all the way back but it 

would still just degrade into a spiral dive before a full turn was 

reached.  I attribute this to insufficient up elevator authority--it 

would pick up speed and start flying again.  Releasing the rudder 

would immediately stop the turn.



My 'fox was flown several times by a professional aerobatic pilot who 

ran it through a wide variety of maneuvers that I am not qualified to 

perform.  He did loops, rolls, Immelmanns, lazy-8s, spins, and others 

I can't remember right now (I don't have my logbooks in front of me). 

Being an expert at this type of thing, he was able to safely keep the 

airplane well within its load limits.  My ham-fisted attempts would 

have been an entirely different story.



He had nothing but praise for that little machine.  



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Michel,

 Some high performance aircraft with high wing loading may take several 

thousands of feet to recover from a spin or high speed dive. I wouldn't 

know about that aircraft, but I wouldn't be surprised  if 6,000 feet is 

not enough in those conditions. Of course if it was a flat spin it may 

not have been recoverable at all.

-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

>I just started to do some 90° bank, 180° turns in my IV

>    

>

... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys!

What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twin engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training.

Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft.

... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't get it.

Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Rexinator [hefferans(at)GMAIL.COM]

  Some high performance aircraft with high wing loading may take several 

 thousands of feet to recover from a spin or high speed dive.


	


Thanks Rex. Meanwhile I read a bit more about the accident on the internet. The cockpit voice recorder has been recovered and according to that, it looks like the following happened:

They were on a training mission. It is not exactly the Norwegian Coast Guards but the ... coastal authorities, you know, those guys who are responsible to put all the  buoys, lighthouses, etc. along the coast. (Kystverk in Norwegian).

They were training stall recovery. They were doing slow turns near stall speed. Somehow it went wrong and they couldn't recover and went from 6,000 ft to the sea. The radar lost them at 800 ft AMSL.

Now, I stall my Kitfox, gently, mushing down. I stall also in a slack turn, recovering with the pedal on the other side from the turn to avoid a spin.

.. I just can't figure out why this aircraft didn't manage to recover from what should be a simple manoeuvre. But if anything, it scares me and I shiver when I read that some of you guys intend rolls, etc.

In the Kitfox 3 I modelled as accurate as possible in the X-Plane simulator, rolls are extremely difficult; I can't finish them without a dive. Of course, it is only a simulator but a good one using the blade theory to model each and every surface as an airfoil. Tiny changes in the model, like the position of the CoG shows great difference in the flight characteristics. One thing is for sure; I would never try a roll in my real-life Kitfox.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Michael,



If you are not comfortable doing a roll, then you should most definitely not do one....  A loop is much easier, there is not as much to mess up.  First time doing a roll you are almost guaranteed to dive out the bottom or do something wrong if you have no experience in aerobatics.   I was teaching a friend rolls in my Cessna 150 Aerobat and he got nose low while upside down,  he changed is mind and pulled for all he was worth, we ended up going out the bottom at 5 1/2 G's and 170 MPH, I was laughing at him all the way, as it was within the limits of the plane    I also ALWAYS wear a parachute when doing aerobatics, and do them high enough to get out, schit happens  !!!



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Michel, I also learned in a 150 Aerobat and then flew a Citabria many 

hours. Both of these airplanes required a dive followed immediately by 

something like a 20+ degree climb atitude to start the roll without 

excessive down pitch or dive upon recovery. Since these are relatively 

slow flying and and slow rolling aircraft the physics require this kind 

of entry to complete the roll as nicely as possible. Higher entry speed 

= higher roll rate. Still, a single roll resulted in a 10-20 degree down 

pitch. You generally never do more than one roll in these airplanes. If 

you tried a roll like you see performed by fighters or high performance 

aerobatic aircraft from a level atitude I'm confident a Kitfox would 

complete the roll in a dive just like the Aerobat or Citabria.

 What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane?



 I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis 

with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's 

tricky to get right.



Disclaimer: I have never flown a Kitfox in aerobactic flight.



-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I think all previous posts, warnings and cautions about aerobatics should  definitely apply.

  

 I have done very little aerobatics in a C-150 Aerobat and a little in a  Decathelon.  But, I have done hundreds of hours of aerobatics with many,  different types and sizes of model R/C aircraft.  I think model flying can  be one of the best instructional formats to teach understanding of the  aerodynamics of aerobatics.  I think even more so than flying a  simulator.  Seeing and feeling (to a great degree) aerobatic maneuvers from  the ground can be very informative and without the disorientation that often  confuses a new on board aerobatic experience.

  

 You can usually find an R/C model club with members who have training  models that are good aerobatic trainers.  A "dual" training flight can be  done with the use of two R/C transmitters linked together with the  instructing pilot able to take over at any instant.  There is little  to no risk of crashing the owner's model.

  

 There is a great deal that can be learned about the performance of  different airfoils with different wing loadings, CG's and power to weight  ratios.  I strongly feel that mastering model aerobatics can be an  invaluable experience.  It is usually very safe too, as long as you don't  fly the little 10-20 pound beast into your own chest!    

 John P.  Marzluf (John Z.)

Columbus, Ohio

Series V Outback (Out Back In The  Garage)

20% Complete, Not Currently Building

Do Not  Archive





Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Rex,



I usually started the rolls as you described, dive to get a bunch of speed, then pull up to about 20 degree climb, start roll...  Top rudder at the 90 degree and 270 degree part of the roll played a major part in keeping the nose from going down to much an getting into a dive, not rudder with ailerons, but rudder to keep the nose up, which in a right hand roll was first left rudder coming up and passing through 90 degrees and then right rudder approaching and passing 270 degrees.   I was able to do an infinite number of rolls by going very high in the 150 aerobat, and just accepting a rolling descent using this technique.   



I also fly RC, but I don think it helps much to teach aerobatics, as the RC planes can pull an incredible amount of G's, and take more abuse than a real plane ever could and you would never even feel it.   So you could be making mistakes in an RC plane that would rip a full scale airplane apart and not even realize it.  



I hear the Kitfox rolls at a really fast rate, which makes rolls easier, but its what you don't know that will bite you, which is why I would want to know what to expect from guys that have done it before I would try something like that.  Some may think I sound crazy for asking this, but the crazy thing would be to try something like this without talking to and learning from those that have been doing aerobatics in the Kitfox.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Fear not, I will never do anything more than ... errr, a 60 degrees bank, Mike!



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Rexinator [hefferans(at)gmail.com]

  What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane?


	


A slight dive, Rex, to make sure I have enough speed.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		    I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis 

 with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's 

 tricky to get right.


	


Exactly, I am sure that it is my lousy rudder control that is the reason of the bad roll. But ... a roll is much easier in other aircraft, especially if they have a strong engine, low wings that are really at the CoG of the aircraft in the three dimensions.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral.  I have tried it at all cg locations and found it to be the same.  In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled configuration.  The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift, but not stall.  When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself.  I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle.

  For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing and recommend the same to others.  I'd also like to restate that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar.  Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs.  



Have fun & be careful,

larry

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to perform light aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin flew had any structural enhancements made to it? I was once told it was just a stock plane with a Rotax 912 (80 HP). I know many of you are familiar with the video on youtube, but for those who are new...do a search for Jimmy Franklin, Kitfox. Remember, he was a professional and like many others have advised...don't try this at home without instructor training.

   

  Dan B, Mesa, AZ

  KF-IV, 912s (painting)



LarryM <CrownLJ(at)verizon.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "LarryM" 



I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less  than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle.

For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar. Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs. [quote][b]

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Yes this discussion is at least "for educational purposes".  



 As Larry points out about the STOL wing characterisics in a spin, those 

characteristics may have a undesirable effect on rolls. For M1-M3 STOL 

wing versions plus the slow Vne would require a much slower roll entry 

speed than is typical for an Aerobat (or Citabria) which were considered 

only an adequate aerobatic platform. I would expect even more loss of 

altitude with each roll. So with my limited aerobatic experience while I 

might consider attempting some aerobatics in my M2 I also possibly would 

find them less satisfying. It would still be fun for a while at least.



-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs



JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Rex,



I usually started the rolls as you described, dive to get a bunch of speed, then pull up to about 20 degree climb, start roll...  Top rudder at the 90 degree and 270 degree part of the roll played a major part in keeping the nose from going down to much an getting into a dive, not rudder with ailerons, but rudder to keep the nose up, which in a right hand roll was first left rudder coming up and passing through 90 degrees and then right rudder approaching and passing 270 degrees.   I was able to do an infinite number of rolls by going very high in the 150 aerobat, and just accepting a rolling descent using this technique.   



I also fly RC, but I don think it helps much to teach aerobatics, as the RC planes can pull an incredible amount of G's, and take more abuse than a real plane ever could and you would never even feel it.   So you could be making mistakes in an RC plane that would rip a full scale airplane apart and not even realize it.  



I hear the Kitfox rolls at a really fast rate, which makes rolls easier, but its what you don't know that will bite you, which is why I would want to know what to expect from guys that have done it before I would try something like that.  Some may think I sound crazy for asking this, but the crazy thing would be to try something like this without talking to and learning from those that have been doing this.



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I'm pretty sure it was a stock Speedster with  912.  Jimmy Franklin was about as good as they get and could probably have  done aerobatics in an ultra light without over stressing it.

  

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  380+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  progress."

- Joseph Joubert

  

 

 

 [quote]   ---

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