Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 01:58:37AM -0700, mirko wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi there, I'm also a concern zodiac builder in Australia. My Zodiac 601 XL

 is built, it took lots of money/time and ready for its first flight. But

 now hearing all these new developments is making me a little nerves. The

 flatter(possible ailerons not balanced) theory seems to stick with me. I

 agree, static tests alone is not the whole answer. Has there been any more

 news regarding the Wing Structure.


	


There's a group that's gotten together to finance an independent study. You

can find out more at the ZBAG list at Yahoo! Groups,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/ .

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Congrats on completing your 601, Mirko! That's quite an accomplishment even before starting the flight test program.



My own 601XL has just crossed the 100 flight hour mark, and after flying cross country from Florida to California in all sorts of weather, is now half way through the long round trip from California to the Arlington show in Washington.



Before it left for Arlington, I did take the time to check cable tensions and the wing and spar attach points. At the 91 hour total time mark, the aileron cable tension was still at an acceptable 32 pounds (hingled ailerons). No worries there. Everything else looked fine, no fretting or other signs of fatigue or wear anywhere.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what's been reported so far, there's still no consensus on a definitive "smoking gun" problem inherent in the 601 airframe, but given the successful efforts to arrest aileron flutter in flight (with reduction of airspeed and a climbing turn), that strongly suggests to me that keeping properly rigged ailerons and not repeatedly overstressing the airframe with inappropriate manuevers is the best course of action while exploring this subject.


	


I'm sure you've already got a thorough flight test program waiting. Flying it conservatively, with ample high-speed taxi tests and sneaking up on cruise speeds should help develop your confidence in the design.



I'm still really pleased with the way my own 601 flys, even with all of the speculation and hoopla over an issue that I suspect has become way overblown. But like everyone else, I'm looking forward to either confirming that a bona fide issue exists, or confirming that a combination of poor materials, loose rigging, and bad pilot technique can induce similar wing failure modes.



Please keep us informed on your test phase progress.



Best,



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP

--

SockPuppet61

Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 15

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

[quote="Matt Ronics"]If Zenith had any sense of responsibility they would ground the XL fleet (insofar as they can advise) pending further review of this problem (meaning until the problem is found and dealt with...no more pictures of sandbags).   

...[/quote]



First off the aircraft that broke up in France was a COPY of a Zenith, not a Zenith. See this:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=44172&highlight=cruise+speed



From which I quote:



"The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair."



How do we know the Poles didn't cheat on their materials?



The flyer of that French plane had an accelerometer in his aircraft but reset it after the accident. Hmmm. Why would he do that? Maybe because he routinely pushed the plane to its design limits (see article) or beyond?



I'm not defending Zenith's 601 design. But the NTSB database does not show a pattern of structural failure of the 601 that I can see. Rather most accidents are engine related or pilot error. The plane that just crashed in Florida was not built by the owner; there was no way to tell how it was flown previous to his owning it. There is no way to ascertain this Czech company's adherence to material standards for the crashed aircraft. Who was their metal supplier? Did they really use proper grade materials? Did they make a mistake in manufacture? Etc etc.



I'd rather be worried about these "factory" manufacturers of LSAs than Zenith's design. Especially the Czech and Polish builders of the crash aircraft.



Having said, and restating that the French crash was a Polish copy-cat kit, that I applaud a group of people pooling there funds to have the plans analyzed. It is never a bad thing to have subsequent accurate engineering analysis done.

Flydog1966(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

In a message dated 7/13/2008 7:16:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --flying my Zodiac to a flyin at one of the prettiest grass strips on    the coast of New England.

 

George May 	
 Would that be the Yankee Ultralight Flyin at Greenland N,H, ?

 do not archive





Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!

  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

I cant believe it. its like gound hog day with this issue.  I think a competitor to the zenith line is getting on here to rehash old news that is dead and buried.  If you think the zenith design is unsafe,  Sell you plane and go buy something else,  you have no place in building a plane.

The 99% majority of us have confidence in the design, confidence in our construction, we are aware we built it and are the manufacturers, not Zenith.  We in the majority are fully aware that a plane is not a toy, and that you fly it within its envelope.  Fly within its envelope, and fly safely and you wil enjoy a great design.  To the minority that have doubts, sell you plane and move on to another hobby.



Juan



--

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Hey Juan, 



Where is your serial number attached to your post? the same for the rest of the guys who wrongly accused us to spread crap around?



Now you know my number is 6-7011, which is yours? give the example and remember to be respectful with people who post their concerns, I´m sure our Aussie friend have not read our previous post. I´ve recommended him the ZBAG list where such  a discussion would be appreciated. 

 

 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

 Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Alberto,

I have an N number, that is all that matters, and that is the point.  Keep building, your rudder, and someday when you are done, and flying, then start pointing fingers at why someione's plane crashed.    



Juan



--

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Ok, good for you, so go and publish it on your sign, and give a good example, and for your knowledge the accident is NEW and not an old one. OK?

-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

cndmovn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

And the downward spiral of accusations and ill thought out replies begins again.......  I knew it was too good to be true that we would have a whole month with only good builder related comments.



Sigh.



Paul

 

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com (iberplanes(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Ok, good for you, so go and publish it on your sign, and give a good example, and for your knowledge the accident is NEW and not an old one. OK?

-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

  Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Mirko, 



Rick, who is a gentleman,  has published a series of 6 issues on the kitplanes magazine where he describes the building process. Thanks to his article, I´ve decided to buy  a kit and start an XL project. 

 

 I´m building my plane and if there is anything we should know I´m pretty confident that ZAC would let us know. 



Take care, 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

No  Cit would be Spurwink C just under Portland airspace

  From: Flydog1966(at)aol.com

Date: Sun C 13 Jul 2008 17:57:24 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 In a message dated 7/13/2008 7:16:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time C gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --flying my Zodiac to a flyin at one of the prettiest grass strips on the coast of New England.

George May 	
 Would that be the Yankee Ultralight Flyin at Greenland N CH C ?

 do not archive

   Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!

 	  Quote: 	

 target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. IM on your terms.  [quote][b]

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  Do Not Archive



Alberto... Juan does have a serial number, 6-6430.  I would not appreciate someone challenging me like that either and may well refuse to respond to a similar demand.  Juan has a beautiful airplane and is rightfully proud of it.   Wild speculation not only hurts the value of all our airplanes unnecessarily, but it can be very irritating.  Sometimes I think it best for novice builders to follow my lead and do more listening than writing until they have at least one bird in the air.  I followed this list a couple of years before posting much of anything.  I could not have built my plane without it.   There are so many great builders out there that we rarely hear from any more.  I hope we are not driving them away.



Those overly concerned about the design should hold off such discussion at least until after Air Venture and our one on one and group discussions with Zenith.



Again, I want to thank the list--hope to meet you all at the Zenith dinner. 	




I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed that the youngest member of the list and the 601 builder community, is also apparently the wisest???



Sabrina, Whatever you decide to do for a career, let me know. I'm gonna buy stock in that company. You will make a difference.



You are an impressive young lady, and a number of us could do well to take a lesson on how to act, and how to build airplanes at the same time



Looking forward to great things from you  



Larry Whitlow

601XL (yes I have a sn its 6-4507)

73% done  51.24% to go

Valparaiso IN (really close to Chicago)

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 08:59:13PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Those overly concerned about the design should hold off such discussion at

 least until after Air Venture and our one on one and group discussions

 with Zenith.


	


Do you know something the rest of us don't in this area? Not everyone will

be able to make OSH, after all...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Sabrina, 



Very well said and now i know, thank you!!, that this is the way to welcome a fellow who post an accident, very polite answer, I´m going to use Juans Vega ways to reply !! ...



I cant believe it. its like gound hog day with this issue.  I think a competitor to the zenith line is getting on here to rehash old news that is dead and buried.  If you think the zenith design is unsafe,  Sell you plane and go buy something else,  you have no place in building a plane.

 The 99% majority of us have confidence in the design, confidence in our construction, we are aware we built it and are the manufacturers, not Zenith.  We in the majority are fully aware that a plane is not a toy, and that you fly it within its envelope.  Fly within its envelope, and fly safely and you will enjoy a great design.  To the minority that have doubts, sell you plane and move on to another hobby.



Mirko send me an off list mail to ask me what have he done, off course, the sin of publishing an accident. That´s called "free of spech" in America, Am I wrong? When back in 1998 I was reading the list very interesting comparissons were made XL vs RVs.... BTW, what were you doing at that year? enough said. 

 

Juan, the first thing he thinks ... A competitor!!!, good ... still remember when the was a post asking to publish our serials in other to know who was a builder, well you have mine, but you said  I would not appreciate someone challenging me like that either and may well refuse to respond to a similar demand.  Smart and nice answer tough. 

 



but this is my favorite "Wild speculation not only hurts the value of all our airplanes unnecessarily, but it can be very irritating.  Sometimes I think it best for novice builders to follow my lead and do more listening than writing until they have at least one bird in the air"  for posting an accident???? I´m forgot you are an star on the list and have the authority to make such a comment,  ... and now imagine how irritated was Mirko when he read the reply! 

 

Funny part are the emails, off-list, that I´m receiving, of people on matronics list who want to know more information and are afraid to ask on the list!! That´s the idea.... send off-list emails, I do not care to reply them. 

 

Well, enough said. It´s been a pleasure to discuss with you 





Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

 Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Alberto,



You shouldn't be surprised when a new person who says they have completed signs on to the list for the first time and and his question is about an accident.



I'm not saying Mirko is one of them but there are people on the Internet that are trying to hurt competitors. 



That said Mirko received 3 perfectly responsible and polite replies from Rick, Jay and George. Not to mention Sabrina's post that proves that contrary to popular belief that teenagers do, in fact, have a clue.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Gig, 



in this case you are right, but on a private mail Mirko told me they were his friends, and he could not understand why he was given "the welcome reply", of couse  now his on the ZBAG list. 

 

Regarding Rick response, you can read mine there too. For me it is imposible to understand why many poeple get so upset when there is an accident. 



Thanks for your email. 

2008/7/15 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

  

 Alberto,

 

 You shouldn't be surprised when a new person who says they have completed signs on to the list for the first time and and his question is about an accident.

 

 I'm not saying Mirko is one of them but there are people on the Internet that are trying to hurt competitors.

 

 That said Mirko received 3 perfectly responsible and polite replies from Rick, Jay and George. Not to mention Sabrina's post that proves that contrary to popular belief that teenagers do, in fact, have a clue.

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192842#192842

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

 Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 04:19:51PM +0200, Iberplanes IGL wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   For me it is imposible to understand why many poeple get so upset when

 there is an accident.


	


I don't think people get upset about the accidents themselves (beyond what

anyone would do, that is); it's the discussions of possible causes and fixes

that seems to run on for a long time afterwards that people get upset about.



Those who feel such discussions are useful appear to have all joined the

ZBAG list at Yahoo! Groups; I suggest that such discussions be held over

there, so that folks on the Zenith and Zenith-601 lists who have gotten

tired of it all don't have to put up with them.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

I'm not really sure what Juan's intentions are but if he is just trying to defend the design, his reaction and tone are completely counterproductive and will do more harm than good to the cause. 



There are plenty of good arguments in defense of the design but "..sell you plane and move on to another hobby." or "..a competitor to the zenith line is getting on here.." is not one of them. 



Juan really need to revise the way he react to this topic, unless he just in it for the enjoyment of trolling.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http//www.geocities.com/bill_dom

--- On Tue, 7/15/08,  Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 10:19 AM



Gig, 



in this case you are right, but on a private mail Mirko told me they were his friends, and he could not understand why he was given "the welcome reply", of couse  now his on the ZBAG list. 

 

Regarding Rick response, you can read mine there too. For me it is imposible to understand why many poeple get so upset when there is an accident. 



Thanks for your email. 

2008/7/15 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

  

 Alberto,

 

 You shouldn't be surprised when a new person who says they have completed signs on to the list for the first time and and his question is about an accident.

 

 I'm not saying Mirko is one of them but there are people on the Internet that are trying to hurt competitors.

 

 That said Mirko received 3 perfectly responsible and polite replies from Rick, Jay and George. Not to mention Sabrina's post that proves that contrary to popular belief that teenagers do, in fact, have a clue.

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192842#192842

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

 Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300 

  [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

We didn't have the luxury of the private mail from Mirko. I looked at his profile and saw that he had just joined the list and decided not to answer at all. This list like every other on the Internet is usually the polite thing to lurk for a while and/or read some of the former posts before you yourself post.



Since the ZBAG list as been created it has calmed down around here and I can understand why Juan answered as he did. But for anyone to post as Mirko did in a group and get a 75% "friendly" reply isn't bad for the Internet. 



As for why people get upset. Jay answered as better than I could. Had Mirko spent any time at all looking at old posts he would have known about the ZBAG list and headed over there.



 	  Iberplanes wrote: 	
		  Gig, 



in this case you are right, but on a private mail Mirko told me they were his friends, and he could not understand why he was given "the welcome reply", of couse  now his on the ZBAG list. 

 

Regarding Rick response, you can read mine there too. For me it is imposible to understand why many poeple get so upset when there is an accident. 



Thanks for your email.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Wing Failure 4/7/2008

Sabrina, you rock. 



 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  

At that year, let me think... this is what I was doing...

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum