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S700 Switches

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ianwilson2

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: France

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: S700 Switches

Hi All,



I've searched the B&C site as well as Bob's AeroElectric site to try and find some schematics that will show me the pin numbers of the S700 series of fast-on switches, but without any luck.  Can someone please point me in the right direction, or can I rely on Figure 11-11 of Bob's 'Switch Ratings, What's it all Mean?' article for my 1-3 and 2-10 switches?



Many thanks.



Ian

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: S700 Switches

At 03:13 AM 7/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi All,



I've searched the B&C site as well as Bob's AeroElectric site to try and 

find some schematics that will show me the pin numbers of the S700 series 

of fast-on switches, but without any luck.  Can someone please point me in 

the right direction, or can I rely on Figure 11-11 of Bob's 'Switch 

Ratings, What's it all Mean?' article for my 1-3 and 2-10 switches?



Many thanks.


	


  Yes.



  Bob . . .

johnciolino(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: S700 Switches

Ian,



Try this:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf



John Ciolino

RV-8

---

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: S700 Switches

Attention!  The Carling switch terminal numbering is (in the below document) 

is different than the Figure 11-11 in "Switch Ratings, What's it all Mean" 

document....



Bret Smith

RV-9A "Canopy"

Blue Ridge, GA

www.FlightInnovations.com

---

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

ianwilson2

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: France

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: S700 Switches

Thanks Bob, John & Bret for the replies.



However, in the light of contradicting evidence between the Micro SW vs Carling and figure 11-11 of the Switch Ratings documents, my (limited by equipment) findings are that the Micro SW vs Carling numbering for the fast-on version of the 2-10 is right.  I don't have any switches with screw terminals to check if the contact numbers are transposed on these and are as per Figure 11-11 in the Switch Ratings document, so maybe someone else could confirm/deny this.



Thanks again for all of your input.



Ian

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: S700 Switches

At 03:28 AM 7/15/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks Bob, John & Bret for the replies.



However, in the light of contradicting evidence between the Micro SW vs 

Carling and figure 11-11 of the Switch Ratings documents, my (limited by 

equipment) findings are that the Micro SW vs Carling numbering for the 

fast-on version of the 2-10 is right.  I don't have any switches with 

screw terminals to check if the contact numbers are transposed on these 

and are as per Figure 11-11 in the Switch Ratings document, so maybe 

someone else could confirm/deny this.



Thanks again for all of your input.


	


    This isn't about screw terminals vs. fast-on tabs. It's

    about the fact that there is no industry standard for

    setting the sequence of operations for right side vs.

    left side of a progressive transfer switch. There is also

    no industry standard for assignment of terminal numbers.

    ONE possibility for transfer sequence is that adopted

    by Microswitch (which is available in EITHER screw or

    fast-on) and that adopted by Carling. Switches by

    other manufacturers can adopt either convention. They

    may mark OTHER numbers on their enclosures.



    It's a simple matter to take your ohmmeter and deduce

    how YOUR switches-in-hand operate. You'll find they're

    either Microswitch-like or Carling-like for transfer

    sequence. Once that  discovery is made, then assign

    numbers to the terminals according to the view in

    11-11 IRRESPECTIVE of how the terminals may be

   numbered on the actual switch.



    THEN . . .  numbers you've deduced by examination of

    function will match the drawings in the Z-figures.



    Bob  . . .

Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: S700 switches

I bought my S700 progressive switches from B&C - they came with no documentation of pin numbers, and I followed the pin diagram from the Aeroelectric Connection.  A couple things (like P-mag powercheck) didnt work quite right,  and on a hunch I eventually checked the switch pins with a multimeter and found that them to be transposed (left to right/right to left) from the figure in the 'Connection.

 

 No cabbages here though - I didnt know a volt from an amp when I started building, and Bob's book and website downloads were a godsend.  Bob has been an invaluable resource for me - and at virtually no cost.  

 

 Erich Weaver

   [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: S700 switches

At 09:46 AM 7/15/2008 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I bought my S700 progressive switches from B&C - they came with no 

documentation of pin numbers, and I followed the pin diagram from the 

Aeroelectric Connection. A couple things (like P-mag powercheck) didnt 

work quite right, and on a hunch I eventually checked the switch pins with 

a multimeter and found that them to be transposed (left to right/right to 

left) from the figure in the 'Connection.


	


   Interesting! Can you give me a date code off an offending

   switch? It will be 4 digits on the side of the switch immediately

   under the "Mexico/Carling" stamp. The switch I used to craft

   the published data was a 24th week of 2000 production. In fact,

   I still have that same switch with the pin numbers marked on

   it in silver magic marker.



   If one dissects one of these things, it becomes apparent

   that there is symmetry in the parts that would allow a switch

   to be assembled "upside-down" which results in totally different

   (but still serviceable) behavior. Now, the REALLY interesting

   possibility is that Carling and Micro DO follow the same

   progressive transfer protocol and the switch that I have

   was the "bad" one.



   I've been through ALL of the progressive transfer devices

   from the BBC era (before B&C) and they conform to the configuration

   published. Has anyone else on the list encountered this

   condition? Does anyone have B&C S700 series progressive-

   transfer switches on hand that are not mounted? Could you

   check them against page 9 of:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Switch_Ratings.pdf



   and see if any differences exist. You might tell us what

   date code is on your switch too.



 	  Quote: 	
		  No cabbages here though - I didnt know a volt from an amp when I started 

building, and Bob's book and website downloads were a godsend. Bob has 

been an invaluable resource for me - and at virtually no cost.


	


   Thank you for the kind words. Your discovery is distressing

   but perhaps not terribly surprising. The way these switches

   are designed, flipping the mechanism is NOT prevented

   by inability to assemble parts. Thanks for the heads-up!



   Bob . . .

Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: S700 switches

Bob wrote:

 

 "Can you give me a date code off an offending switch?"

 

 Will do, but my pesky job may prevent me from getting to the hangar and providing the answer  until Friday or Saturday.  

 

 erich

   [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: S700 switches

At 04:32 PM 7/15/2008 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob wrote:



"Can you give me a date code off an offending switch?"



Will do, but my pesky job may prevent me from getting to the hangar and 

providing the answer until Friday or Saturday.



erich


	


   Understand. Do you have any of these switches "loose" i.e., not

   installed?



   Bob . . .

andrewbutler(at)ireland.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: S700 switches

"Will do, but my pesky job may prevent me from getting to the hangar and providing the answer  until Friday or Saturday.  "



Yeah, life just keeps getting in the way of finishing the damn thing and getting in the air! There was a great article in Kitplanes magazine a couple of months ago written more like an ode to the writers' unfinished RV7 that was sitting patiently in his shed, apprantly longing  to get in the air. It was in response to another builder's observation, in the same magazine, that build projects should win over all else. Mind you, this indvidual seemed to be able to make a nice living playing on his computer a couple of hours here and there in his own home whenever he wasn't working on his plane..... Nice work if you can get it!



Ditto on not knowing nothin' about aircraft electrics until reading Aeroelectric twice on two (very) long haul flights last year.



I have a few S700 switches sitting in an unopened box from B&C. This is a good excuse to fish them out and figure them out.



Andrew.

RV71700.

 

 

 

   [quote][b]

ianwilson2

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: France

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Re: S700 Switches

Bob & all,



I have some 1-3 and 2-10 switches that were delivered by B&C about a month ago.  The 2-10 is definitely wired as per the Micro Switch vs Carling article, i.e. with keyway up, on the first switch up, pins 1 & 2 (bottom left & middle) connect and on the second switch up, pins 4 & 5 (bottom right & middle) connect.  My 2-10 has the code 0817R on the side and my 1-3 has 0639R on it.  The 1-3 seems to be perform as advertised.



Hope this helps.



Ian

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: S700 Switches

At 05:00 AM 7/16/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob & all,



I have some 1-3 and 2-10 switches that were delivered by B&C about a month 

ago.  The 2-10 is definitely wired as per the Micro Switch vs Carling 

article, i.e. with keyway up, on the first switch up, pins 1 & 2 (bottom 

left & middle) connect and on the second switch up, pins 4 & 5 (bottom 

right & middle) connect.  My 2-10 has the code 0817R on the side and my 

1-3 has 0639R on it.  The 1-3 seems to be perform as advertised.



Hope this helps.


	


   Its a LOT of help. Folks should understand that the single pole

   and two-pole tandem transfer switches have no way to be 'different'

   from other brands. It's when we purchase the very useful

   PROGRESSIVE TRANSFER devices that there is room for variability between

   brands. Of course, Microswitch molds numbers into their

   switch bodies . . . and they've delivered their switches

   to conforming to  consistent catalog data and military specification

   going back many decades.



   Now, there are dozens if not hundreds of sources for switches

   that are useful to our purposes . . . SOME of these suppliers

   will offer the progressive transfer devices and they have

   a decision to make: "Which side of the switch transfers first?"

   It's a 50:50 thing that doesn't make much difference in the

   big picture as long as the installer KNOWS which side is

   which and how it relates to his task in following an explicit

   wiring diagram.



   This situation has come up before in another venue. I used

   to drop by the MAC/RayAllen booth at OSH every year to plead

   the case for slightly larger wire and TWO colors on the motor

   leads that they control as (+)extend and (+)retract.

   No joy. They did not seem to appreciate the value of crafting

   a user friendly product. Anyone who attempted to publish drawings

   that assisted THEIR customers in wiring THEIR product right

   the first time was unable to offer that support.



   If researched the few catalogs I have on my hard drive

   for switches and I find that most of the industry seems to

   conform to the same progressive transfer convention adopted

   by Microswitch many moons ago. There IS a military specification

   for such switches and once carved in government stone, large

   volume suppliers to the government are loath to diddle with

   tradition for any reason!

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Honeywell_Prog_Xfer_Convention.pdf



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/C&K_Prog_Xfer_Convention.pdf



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/APEM_Prog_Xfer_Convention.pdf



   Unfortunately, Carlingswitch does not number their terminals

   and they only refer to the progressive transfer functionality

   by referring to the two sides as "Circuit 1" and "Circuit 2". See

   page 2 of . . .



http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/Carling_G-series.pdf



   So, they could easily have swapped sides to conform to everyone

   else's notion of how it should be done . . . without reprinting

   their catalog!



   I've written to Carlingswitch to see if they can offer us some

   insight as to (1) whether or not the swap was intentional and

   (2) if so, when (what date code) did the swap take place.



   Time will tell . . .



   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: S700 switches

At 10:00 AM 7/16/2008 +0000, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  "Will do, but my pesky job may prevent me from getting to the hangar and 

providing the answer until Friday or Saturday. "

I have a few S700 switches sitting in an unopened box from B&C. This is a 

good excuse to fish them out and figure them out.


	


  Cool!



  Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

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