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GenGrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: SB work

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	
 For what it's worth for you who have not begun the wonderful task of doing  the SB on the rear bulkhead, here's some data for you.

  

 Started yesterday afternoon, worked all day today.  10.5 hrs so far  with about 2 hrs to go to finish.

  

 This is with 2 people working dedicated full time, and assisted by 2 others  when it came time to pull the horizontals off with those blasted trim  cables.

  

 For those still building the horizontals, make the holes for the cables  bigger than the plans say in case you ever have to take the tail off......

  

 Riveting the doublers in and re-doing the top plate.......we used hand  squeezers as well as 2 different jaw'd pneumatic squeezers plus rivet gun and  bucking bar to get to all of the required rivets.

  

 Not a fun job at all.

  

 No cracks in my bulkhead at 70 hrs prior to installing the doublers.

  

 Not a fun or easy job.  Find some extra hands to help - you'll need  them.

  

 grumpy

 N`84JM

  

 do not archive



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: SB work

Hey John, glad you got the SB going!



I just finished the SB today myself.  Had me and 2 ladies

to do the work...they did most of it.  We got the HS completely

off and ready to drill rivets in maybe 2-2.5 hours.  Had the

doublers in place after lunch, the reassembly went fairly

well.  I'll do a write-up on it.  My reassembly was perhaps

longer than some peoples would be, due to some wiring related

things that I did in addition.



Total time was about 9.25 hours to complete the SB, and another

.25 to test fly it.



This one will definitely have a write-up, although I didn't

take much for photos since there is already a great online

photo display of it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rv8erpics/RV10SB0861?authkey=HdMqmAzGxsc



I agree, as far as the holes in the HS go, except I removed my

HS and Elevators/trim tabs as a unit, so I only had to pull the

cables from the trim mechanism.



I did all of my rivets with a rivet gun, and it went real

quick and easy.



I found no cracks in the bulkhead, by the way, at 349 hours.

And I've flown it hard enough shaking that tail with that

stall series I did video and photos of that I figure if I

don't have cracks, not many will.  More on that later though.



The job goes fastest with at least 2 people.  Having 3 there was

nice in that I was always able to work nonstop as they helped

with the peripheral tasks so I could plug away.



Glad to be done!

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



GenGrumpy(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		       **

 

 For what it's worth for you who have not begun the wonderful task of 

 doing the SB on the rear bulkhead, here's some data for you.

  

 Started yesterday afternoon, worked all day today.  10.5 hrs so far with 

 about 2 hrs to go to finish.

  

 This is with 2 people working dedicated full time, and assisted by 2 

 others when it came time to pull the horizontals off with those blasted 

 trim cables.

  

 For those still building the horizontals, make the holes for the cables 

 bigger than the plans say in case you ever have to take the tail off......

  

 Riveting the doublers in and re-doing the top plate.......we used hand 

 squeezers as well as 2 different jaw'd pneumatic squeezers plus rivet 

 gun and bucking bar to get to all of the required rivets.

  

 Not a fun job at all.

  

 No cracks in my bulkhead at 70 hrs prior to installing the doublers.

  

 Not a fun or easy job.  Find some extra hands to help - you'll need them.

  

 grumpy

 N`84JM

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: Re: SB work

Hey John, Tim,



Thanks, I was thinking we are incompetent!



Similar results -- we also started and finished the SB yesterday -- fortunately the tail feathers were still off, but after spending all afternoon with the two of us, our mutual feeling was "now were back to where we were yesterday"!  



With all the drilling and pounding -- especially in that upper corner where the crack is reported, I can't help but wonder if we didn't weaken it more than strengthen it.  But it's done.



Later, - Lew



Do not archive

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

GenGrumpy(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: SB work

I should have brought mine up to you to do!

  

 I mis-calculated time yesterday, total time was about 16 hrs, 14 of that  with a dedicated helper.

  

 We did 2 -10s side by side, with 2 guys working each bird. 

  

 My rudder trim cables were much harder to deal with than the other  bird.....wish I had put a connector into the trim wiring harness.  That  would have made it much easier to deal with the trim assy.

  

 But....I'm now back up and ready for test hop.

  

 grumpy-N184JM

  

 do not archive

  

 In a message dated 6/21/2008 9:19:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  Tim(at)MyRV10.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>



Hey John,    glad you got the SB going!



I just finished the SB today myself.     Had me and 2 ladies

to do the work...they did most of it.  We got the    HS completely

off and ready to drill rivets in maybe 2-2.5 hours.  Had    the

doublers in place after lunch, the reassembly went    fairly

well.  I'll do a write-up on it.  My reassembly was    perhaps

longer than some peoples would be, due to some wiring    related

things that I did in addition.



Total time was about 9.25    hours to complete the SB, and another

.25 to test fly it.



This one    will definitely have a write-up, although I didn't

take much for photos    since there is already a great online

photo display of    it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rv8erpics/RV10SB0861?authkey=HdMqmAzGxsc



I    agree, as far as the holes in the HS go, except I removed my

HS and    Elevators/trim tabs as a unit, so I only had to pull the

cables from the    trim mechanism.



I did all of my rivets with a rivet gun, and it went    real

quick and easy.



I found no cracks in the bulkhead, by the way,    at 349 hours.

And I've flown it hard enough shaking that tail with    that

stall series I did video and photos of that I figure if I

don't    have cracks, not many will.  More on that later though.



The job    goes fastest with at least 2 people.  Having 3 there was

nice in that    I was always able to work nonstop as they helped

with the peripheral tasks    so I could plug away.



Glad to be done!

Tim Olson - RV-10    N104CD - Flying



GenGrumpy(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		          **

 

 For what it's worth for you who have not    begun the wonderful task of 

 doing the SB on the rear bulkhead, here's    some data for you.

  

 Started yesterday afternoon, worked    all day today.  10.5 hrs so far with 

 about 2 hrs to go to    finish.

  

 This is with 2 people working dedicated full    time, and assisted by 2 

 others when it came time to pull the    horizontals off with those blasted 

 trim cables.

     

 For those still building the horizontals, make the holes for the    cables 

 bigger than the plans say in case you ever have to take the    tail off......

  

 Riveting the doublers in and re-doing    the top plate.......we used hand 

 squeezers as well as 2 different    jaw'd pneumatic squeezers plus rivet 

 gun and bucking bar to get to    all of the required rivets.

  

 Not a fun job at    all.

  

 No cracks in my bulkhead at 70 hrs prior to    installing the doublers.

  

 Not a fun or easy job.     Find some extra hands to help - you'll need them.

  

    grumpy

 N`84JM

     es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================


	


	


 

  



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

ddnebert

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 17

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Re: SB work

Fortunately, I still haven't joined my tailcone or have cables in the way, but I began the doubler plate work yesterday. I found that drilling out the old #30 rivets was hard to reach as the shop heads were facing forward and the taper of the fuselage made the angle tough (Did go buy an angle drill tool for this). I clecoed the doublers on the forward side of the bulkhead and carefully drilled perpendicular to make the many new #30 holes, then mounted it on the aft side, reamed, and then deburred everything. Having more than one set of hands will be handy to get the last few rivets in.



How do you all get those nasty filings out of the tailcone? Someone needs to invent a drill with a powerful vacuum... Best I can do is with a vacuum and attachment.

sb_doubler1.jpg

Description:

Placed doubler on fwd side to make initial holes.

Filesize:

41.11 KB

Viewed:

640 Time(s)

sb_doubler2.jpg

Description:

Doubler on aft side after reaming and priming

Filesize:

38.5 KB

Viewed:

661 Time(s)

_________________
RV-10 Builder #40546
Tail mostly done, wings complete, end of SB fuse, working on doors and fiberglass

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: SB work

Yeah, I used a 90 degree drill for those couple rivets holding it on

to the top of the bulkhead.  A small 90 drill like you can get

from aviation tool places works well for that.  I clecoed mine

on the aft part of the bulkhead, since I figured for the match

drilling we were doing that was the best, and used the same

90 degree drill to drill the holes.  I just worked alone on that

part.



The attached photo shows the attached doubler plate.  I used

a rivet gun on the forward side, for a couple reasons....1)

the rivet head should technically be on the thinner material

if possible.  2) it gave more clearance for the gun.  I was

shocked that after a couple years without much riveting, they

all came out perfect.  It was easy to rivet and buck working

alone in this area.



To get the filings out, I used a small shop vac hose, and banged

outward against the side of the skin to get the shavings to

loosen and get sucked up.  No fun, but I got most of them.

Wish I would have had my akzo primer, but I settled for a

bit of self-etching on this part.  Not perfect, but it worked.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



ddnebert wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Fortunately, I still haven't joined my tailcone or have cables in the

 way, but I began the doubler plate work yesterday. I found that

 drilling out the old #30 rivets was hard to reach as the shop heads

 were facing forward and the taper of the fuselage made the angle

 tough (Did go buy an angle drill tool for this). I clecoed the

 doublers on the forward side of the bulkhead and carefully drilled

 perpendicular to make the many new #30 holes, then mounted it on the

 aft side, reamed, and then deburred everything. Having more than one

 set of hands will be handy to get the last few rivets in.

 

 How do you all get those nasty filings out of the tailcone? Someone

 needs to invent a drill with a powerful vacuum... Best I can do is

 with a vacuum and attachment.

 

 -------- RV-10 Builder #40546 Tail mostly done, wings complete,

 starting SB fuse

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: SB work

ddnebert wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Fortunately, I still haven't joined my tailcone or have cables in the way, but I began the doubler plate work yesterday. I found that drilling out the old #30 rivets was hard to reach as the shop heads were facing forward and the taper of the fuselage made the angle tough (Did go buy an angle drill tool for this). I clecoed the doublers on the forward side of the bulkhead and carefully drilled perpendicular to make the many new #30 holes, then mounted it on the aft side, reamed, and then deburred everything. Having more than one set of hands will be handy to get the last few rivets in.

   

AMEN!!!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   How do you all get those nasty filings out of the tailcone?

I have a 3' length of 1/2" PVC pipe taped to the regular round vacuum 
	


attachment.  It works well, but the 1/4" PVC pipe may work better.  My 

shavings are still in there until I finish the riveting 

Linn

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		    Someone needs to invent a drill with a powerful vacuum... Best I can do is with a vacuum and attachment.



 --------

 RV-10 Builder #40546

 Tail mostly done, wings complete, starting SB fuse





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189243#189243





 Attachments: 



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/sb_doubler1_882.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/sb_doubler2_198.jpg

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: SB work

How about masking off and using drop cloth before beginnning.

-Chris Lucas

#40072



---

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: SB work

Started re-assembly after deconstructing the tail. I did it without an angle drill.....  How? Got in as tight as I could with the red Sioux drill. Then I used some creative bending of my long 30 & 40 bits that I got from Cleveland. I first drilled the rivets with a #40 bit going all the way through VERRRRY carefully to stay in the center. Drilled the heads with the 30 drill - broke off the heads and then pulled the rest out with a compression pliers. I only buggered one hole slightly this way. Trimmed out the doubler and primed it and started squeezing the double rivets.

Got all of them but 6. Need a partner to shoot while I buck tomorrow.

12 hours in and 2-3 to go.........uggggg

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: SB work

Completed the job in 6 unhurried hours on an assembled fuselage without 

the tail surfaces installed.



Drilling out the rivets was pretty easy.  Sharp bits help.  So does a 

12" bit and an angle drill for 2 or 4 of them.



Was able to power squeeze all the doubler rivets and all the horizontal 

tail deck rivets with the exception of 4.  Used a hand squeezer on the 6 

or 8 rivets that go into the vertical tab at the front.



Bill Watson

Durham NC

See you at Oshkosh

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: SB work

Started it yesterday on an unattached tailcone. I've logged 8 hours and 2.8 for my wife. Will probably finish in another 2 hours after I borrow a 4" yoke. I only drilled out the two rivets on each side common to the F-1010 and F-1010A. This is the hardest part. The entire operation can be done from outside the tailcone, although I had an advantage in that I could roll it to one side or the other on a table for easy access.

There is no need to pull the F-1014 aft deck and ruin those "beautiful" rivets. The right tools are essential. Sioux drill, Right Angle drill attachment with the optional chuck - such as Avery's kit, slightly longer chucking bits than normal, a mirror, and a flashlight held by you-know-who.

Everything is accessible through the lightening holes in the aft deck and the large hole in F-1009. If you can't roll the tailcone from side to side like I could, it's still doable, but will definitely be less comfortable.

I buggered one of the four rivets that was inboard, so I carefully "buggered the other one to match." Drilled them to take an AN3-5A and it looks great.

As soon as I borrow the 4" yoke, I'll get the hard to reach ones done. The pneumatic squeezer doesn't get along with the one rivet next to the J-channel, so I'll probably have to shoot & buck it. De-burring was surprisingly easy, although the mirror makes your sense of direction go crazy.

I'm extremely pleased with the results and I didn't have to touch the aft deck (although it did teach my forearms a lesson). I would highly recommend doing it this way if at all possible. I doubt if it's any faster, but I sure feel better about leaving the aft deck alone.

For you flying guys, Tim's discovery of some smoking rivets may make the Van's way the preferred method - I might have missed something like that.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: SB work

Hi

  6nbsp;

 A question from a member of 6nbsp;the peanut gallery who just received the SB kit E Is there any reason that Cherry Max rivets 6nbsp;shouldn 7t be used 6nbsp;for the hard to reach rivet locations?

  6nbsp;

 Inquiring minds need to know E E E

  6nbsp;

 Les Kearney

  340643 6nbsp;



---

pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: SB work

nope!

  



  From: LES KEARNEY (Kearney(at)shaw.ca) 

 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 7:50 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: SB work

 



 Hi

  

 A question from a member of the peanut gallery who just received the  SB kit. Is there any reason that Cherry Max rivets shouldn't be  used for the hard to reach rivet locations?

  

 Inquiring minds need to know...

  

 Les Kearney

 #40643 



---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: SB work

You should be able to use them.  The only caveat is that

if you use them, and there is another better "fix" down the line

that is required, it's very very hard to drill out CherryMax

rivets compared to just drilling standard universal rivets.

If it's forever though, then there shouldn't be any big problem.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

pascal wrote:

[quote] nope!

 

 *From:* LES KEARNEY <mailto:Kearney(at)shaw.ca>

 *Sent:* Monday, June 30, 2008 7:50 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 *Subject:* Re: Re: SB work

 

 Hi

  

 A question from a member of the peanut gallery who just received the SB 

 kit. Is there any reason that Cherry Max rivets shouldn't be used for 

 the hard to reach rivet locations?

  

 Inquiring minds need to know...

  

 Les Kearney

 #40643 

 

 ---

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: SB work

 	  Quote: 	
		  Rob Wright wrote:

Crack SB complete; 6 hours and a couple of difficult rivets (did not remove top shelf)!


	


So I must have done something wrong.  I see folks taking A LOT of hours to comply with the SB.  



Assuming you are still constructing and have the tail off, to drill out the 50 or so rivets, match drill the reinforcing plates, and then re-rivet, took me under 3 hours--one hour to drill out rivets and match drill; one half hour to prime and deburr; and another hour to re-rivet.  And that was only because I was doing other things during that time.  Again, this is for those that did NOT have to remove the tail--what is all the extra time spent on?  Doing it by not removing the top shelf should take even less time--maybe.



http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/05Tailcone/Tailcone90.html



William

http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: SB work

It's that initial set of assumptions you make - 



(1) "Assuming you are still constructing and have the tail off"



(2) "(did not remove top shelf)"



Many folks have the tail on.  Taking it off and putting it back on, in addition to removing the rivets on the top shelf makes for much more time.



Jim Combs

40192



Do Not Archive



============================================================

From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

Date: 2008/07/13 Sun PM 07:19:44 EDT

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: SB work






 	  Quote: 	
		  Rob Wright wrote:

Crack SB complete; 6 hours and a couple of difficult rivets (did not remove top shelf)!


	


So I must have done something wrong.  I see folks taking A LOT of hours to comply with the SB.  



Assuming you are still constructing and have the tail off, to drill out the 50 or so rivets, match drill the reinforcing plates, and then re-rivet, took me under 3 hours--one hour to drill out rivets and match drill; one half hour to prime and deburr; and another hour to re-rivet.  And that was only because I was doing other things during that time.  Again, this is for those that did NOT have to remove the tail--what is all the extra time spent on?  Doing it by not removing the top shelf should take even less time--maybe.



http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/05Tailcone/Tailcone90.html



William

http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/ 

============================================================

flywrights(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: SB work

Nah, It took me more time to leave the shelf on because I'm better (I think) at manuevering in small places than drilling out so many rivets without elongation. 

  

:] 

Rob 



 

 ---

pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: SB work

This is probably common knowledge http://home.earthlink.net/~gilalex/Rivet/ but  when I did this SB I used this method. I was quite surprised that there wasn't  one rivet in the complete process I messed up.. first for me!!  

 I actually have a better looking shelf now than I  did before starting.. There were 3-4 rivets I looked at and thought there were  awful, that are now much better looking. 

 Pascal

  



  From: Robert Wright (flywrights(at)yahoo.com) 

 Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:33 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: SB work

 



  

Nah, It took me more time to leave the shelf on because I'm better (I think)  at manuevering in small places than drilling out so many rivets without  elongation. 

  

:] 

Rob 



 

 -----  Original Message ----

From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent:  Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:19:44 PM

Subject: Re: SB  work



--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)>



 	  Quote: 	
		  Rob  Wright wrote:

Crack SB complete; 6 hours and a couple of difficult rivets  (did not remove top shelf)!


	


So I must have done something wrong.  I  see folks taking A LOT of hours to comply with the SB.  



Assuming  you are still constructing and have the tail off, to drill out the 50 or so  rivets, match drill the reinforcing plates, and then re-rivet, took me under 3  hours--one hour to drill out rivets and match drill; one half hour to prime and  deburr; and another hour to re-rivet.  And that was [quote]



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title='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"
CTRL + Click to follow link' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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[b]

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: SB work

Yeah, I learned this at an OSH workshop a few years ago but this is a good reference.  I usually skip step 3 however.  I just use a #40 bit into the 1/8" rivet and then use a #40 punch to snap off the head.  Usually works real good an a lot less chance of "buggering' the 1/8" hole.



William

http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/ 



------

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: SB work

Yes, that's the best method that I've ever been told in the

past also.  I personally use a flat ended punch to snap

them off, although some people use the flat end of a drill

bit.  It works well, because you're just snapping the head

of the rivet off.  You can do it with a smaller sized bit,

too.  It's been suggested before that people buy a #31 and

#41 bit, because then you can drill ever so slightly

undersized to the hole, so you don't hit the surrounding

metal if you're off center.  Not much difference, but it's

nice.  At OSH it might be worth poking around with the

vendors to get those bits.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

pascal wrote:

[quote] This is probably common knowledge 

 http://home.earthlink.net/~gilalex/Rivet/ but when I did this SB I used 

 this method. I was quite surprised that there wasn't one rivet in the 

 complete process I messed up.. first for me!!

 I actually have a better looking shelf now than I did before starting.. 

 There were 3-4 rivets I looked at and thought there were awful, that are 

 now much better looking.

 Pascal

 

 *From:* Robert Wright <mailto:flywrights(at)yahoo.com>

 *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 9:33 AM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 *Subject:* Re: SB work

 

 Nah, It took me more time to leave the shelf on because I'm better (I 

 think) at manuevering in small places than drilling out so many rivets 

 without elongation.

 

  

 

 :]

 

 Rob

 

 

 

 ---

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