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Cabbages and kings . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

At 01:23 PM 7/13/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

----Bob: If you knew my background you would understand how wrong you are 

about

my design approach as well as nearly all your comments in this and many

other responses.



My resume includes personal congratulations from the President of the USA

for outstanding scientific excellence, Another is the Presidents award for

outstanding engineering performance at Lockheed. Also there is the multiple

management positions typically manager of the command and control systems

for spacecraft including the Space Telescope.


	


    So that's it? All we get is your resume? A list

    of the certificates on your office wall? I've received

    a few of those. They looked just like the ones that

    everyone who worked on the program received. I've

    not kept a single one.

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have published OBAM designs and design details on several other groups, my

web site,


	


    . . . all I get at http://mtfind.com is a blank "Under Construction"

    page. While Googling the web looking for other possible Messinger

    websites I found some comments attributed to you supporting the NSI

    Subaru conversion over Eggenfellner. I was contacted a few

    years back by a group of NSI hopefuls who had put up lots

    of dollars and still had no engine. They were interested in

    hiring me to look into the NSI design. The data they were

    able to provide showed a horribly complex, fully redundant

    EFI design. I had to advise them that unless NSI was considering

    a clean piece of paper restart, I didn't think there was anything

    I could do for them that would justify my participation. I note

    that Maxwell Propulsion is attempting to pull that tar baby out of

    the sticky with a much simpler configuration. As I recall, this

    photo . . .



http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Too_Many_Relays.jpg



    was an NSI installation. If not, I stand corrected but in any

    case, WWWAAAaaaayyyy too many relays. I guess I'm only mildly

    interested in what had you excited about the original NSI concept.

 	  Quote: 	
		    . . . and three national mags. I guess there is a world outside of

aeroelectric.


	


    There is indeed and if the editors of those magazines are

    pleased with what they purchased, then I am pleased for

    them. But YOU posted to the AeroElectric-List

    to voice your objections to my writing . . . again.

    I don't collect awards/commendations. Well, I do

    have a really nice picture of a Model 17 Beech given

    to me at my retirement party and signed by several dozen

    of my associates from 30+ years of Wichita aviation.



    It was signed by the VP of engineering as he was asking

    me what my consulting rate was going to be.  THAT'S the

    kind of "award" I strive for . . . a satisfied customer

    that wants to spend more money. I got my contractor's

    badge for Hawker-Beech a few months later.



    I've made my way by putting every idea out in writing

    along with schematics, bills of materials, suggested

    sources of supply, 400 Mb of website original materials

    and reference documents, all supported by sales of

    about 15,000 books and 10+ years of weekend seminars.

    I derive no small satisfaction in solving a stubborn

    problem on an airplane in a few days that others have

    fretted with for weeks, sometimes months.



    I've stood in front of countless gatherings of my

    peers to offer up and then defend my designs, take

    my lumps when I screw up, and be justifiably

    proud of products that are still flying on

    production aircraft after more than 25 years.

    Finally, I back all this up with a money-back

    guarantee of satisfaction to the OBAM aviation

    community for for anything received from me.



    So far all we've received from you in THIS

    venue is a load of cabbages and tomatoes tossed

    in from the sidelines with not a single alternative

    solution. You talk about some "golden system of

    the future" crafted by yourself and Eric and no

    doubt blessed by GMC_Jetpilot. While the dedicated

    members of this list keep hammering away on projects

    that stand head-and-shoulders above the TC world,

    what support has been forthcoming from you? What

    advice have you offered any builder that saved him

    money, time or made the airplane "safer"?



    Nada, zilch, zip.



    Paul, it takes more than words, awards and a good

    cabbage throwing arm to be a creative engineer

    and successful entrepreneur. My customers expect (and I

    endeavor to deliver) simple, safe, economical, repeatable

    experiments supported with understanding - recipes for

    success.



    I'll ask it again Paul . . . please go away.

    You are not making a positive contribution to the

    mission here on the AeroElectric-List.



    Bob . . .

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Cabbages and kings . . .

So, do I have to get in here and solve EVERYONE'S problems....Cheeeze.



My friend Paul calls me and tells me deep technical details of things of our common interest along with his complaints about disagreements with Bob....which I am sometimes vaguely aware of...yawn...because I read very little of Bob's tirades because they give me the Gollywoggles. (Cripes...where DOES he get the energy?) 



Seriously--Bob is absolutely right about thousands of things, and a great help to all who are engaged in building flying machines. He is only stone-cold-crazy-wrong about a dozen or so...so what's the percentage here? Pretty good I'd say. I'd recommend him.



As for me, I figured this out some time ago:  I just sell my own creations to thousands of Bob's customers who, while appreciating Bob's great skill and wisdom, can't bear walking into a Radio Shack to buy and cripple an FWB. I have sold many many many hundreds of International Rectifier PowerSchottkys. Nobody ever comes back and says, "Gee, I was looking for a lower-power device with higher losses and questionable pedigree....you know, the way they did it way back in 1935."



My suggestion is to encourage more independent invention and really clever products for the EA community. I don't ever intend to compete with Bob or JetPilot or Paul M., but I value all their opinions and contributions. You bet I do.



See the attachment if you want to peek at schematic Z100 (in process). I mention this because I am barely interested in having anybody tell me I should do it Bob's or Paul's of JetPilot's or somebody else's way. Some will want to use parts of Z100 in their design, and some will choose the rather dated but well tested design Bob has spent years working on (Watch out for those dozen crazy things!).



I accept and encourage people pointing out my errors (and I do make some), but as for personal philosophy...Hell, we all should be flying Cessnas, bubela.



When the Oakies left Oklahoma and moved to California, 

it raised the I.Q. of both states." 

--Will Rogers

Power Protector revB.pdf

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

At 05:00 PM 7/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  




	


   <snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		  My suggestion is to encourage more independent invention and really clever 

products for the EA community. I don't ever intend to compete with Bob or 

JetPilot or Paul M., but I value all their opinions and contributions. You 

bet I do.


	


    Hear hear! I really like to see what clever things are

    being proposed!



 	  Quote: 	
		  See the attachment if you want to peek at schematic Z100 (in process). I 

mention this because I am barely interested in having anybody tell me I 

should do it Bob's or Paul's of JetPilot's or somebody else's way.


	


   No attachment came through . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		    Some will want to use parts of Z100 in their design, and some will

  choose the rather dated but well tested design Bob has spent years

  working on (Watch out for those dozen crazy things!).


	


   Okay, I'll bite. List ONE and ONE only of those crazy things.

   Let's examine the philosophy, physics and application of any

   SINGLE item you suggest is evidence of my psychosis. I tried

   to engage Paul in a single-item discussion that I hoped would

   illustrate and illuminate some of my most vexing questions in

   the task of integrating automotive alternators to aircraft . . .

   but no joy.



   Bob . . .

JOE RONCO

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 31
Location: CENTENNIAL COLORADO

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

BOB: Here is the attachment. It was at the bottom of Eric's e-mail.



http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_protector_revb_161.pdf



Joe Ronco



--

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

At 10:14 AM 7/15/2008 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



BOB: Here is the attachment. It was at the bottom of Eric's e-mail.



http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_protector_revb_161.pdf


	


   Very good. Thank you.



   Hmmmm . . . the LT4356 is a device designed to deal with

   short term perturbations on the bus. "Surges" that are

   typically tens of milliseconds. When used in the manner

   suggested, is it intended to stand off a runaway alternator?

   The data sheet says that to stand off a 150v surge, one

   must protect the Vcc and SNS input pins with independent

   limiting of applied voltage as shown on Page 15 of the

   data sheet.



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/LT4356.pdf



   Even then, during the aberration output from

   circuit in a 24v system is "clamped at 32v"

   (16 volts in a 12v system). It doesn't shut down.

   This means that equipment downstream remains

   "ON" and powered at the upper limit of supply

   voltage. The series pass device (Power MOSFET)

   continues to dissipate energy at the difference

   between input and output voltage at what ever

   current the system is demanding.



   There is a discussion beginning on page 10, second column

   that speaks to the ability of this system to deal with

   short term transients . . . with the limiting factor

   being ability of the MOSFET to toss off heat.



   What means is proposed to shut the runaway

   alternator down before thermal limits of the

   surge trapping system are exceeded?



   Another point of interest. There's a series shunt

   shown of 10 milliohms which would drop 600 mV at

   60A for total of 36 watts. The proposed FET could

   go to as low as one milliohm instead of the 12

   milliohms cited so that dissipation could drop into

   the 3 to 4 watt class. A series diode should not be

   necessary . . . protection from shorted diodes in

   alternator is generally provided by a b-lead fuse

   or breaker.



   The LT4356 does not seem to be suited for standing

   off the uncontrolled runway. The schematic proposed

   does not suggest a means by which an alternator may

   be controlled . . . I'm presuming that the "new

   philosophy" is that the artfully designed system

   of the future does not demand control. I'm not

   aware of how that might be accomplished.



   Perhaps the description of the proposed product does

   not tell all of the tale.



   Bob . . .

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

   The LT4356 does not seem to be suited for standing

   off the uncontrolled runway. The schematic proposed

   does not suggest a means by which an alternator may

   be controlled . . 


	


Bob, what if you look at the N-MOSFET as an expensive fuse that 

regulates while it is burning?  Sacrificing itself to in order to save 

my $3,000 EFIS?  Digikey is advertising a 60V/60A N-MOSFET units for 

less than $2 in lots of one.  The LT4356-1 will probably go down with 

it, but it still looks like it could save some expensive equipment in an 

extremely rare event.



The 10 milliOhm resistor would work as the shunt that many builders use 

to drive an ammeter.  I'm assuming the diode is to keep the battery from 

driving the LT4356-1?

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

At 04:57 PM 7/15/2008 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

<echristley(at)nc.rr.com>

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>

>   The LT4356 does not seem to be suited for standing

>   off the uncontrolled runway. The schematic proposed

>   does not suggest a means by which an alternator may

>   be controlled . .

Bob, what if you look at the N-MOSFET as an expensive fuse that regulates 

while it is burning?  Sacrificing itself to in order to save my $3,000 

EFIS?  Digikey is advertising a 60V/60A N-MOSFET units for less than $2 in 

lots of one.  The LT4356-1 will probably go down with it, but it still 

looks like it could save some expensive equipment in an extremely rare event.

   It's not stated in the write-up but if the sprit and intent

   is to isolate the ship's systems from every form of alternator

   failure, then 60v devices wont get it. Until the field winding

   opens up to terminate a runaway event, the b-lead on a Lycoming

   mounted alternator can be well over 100 volts . . . for perhaps

   a minute or more.

   Of course, this presumes that there is no battery on line.

   In this case, the battery will go into sacrificial mode

   attempting to keep the bus from rising . . . and it does

   a really good job . . . for seconds, not minutes. The

   dynamics of detecting and responding to an alternator

   runaway is pretty well understood . . . I'm certain

   that I wouldn't attempt to control it with a solid state

   device in series with the b-lead. Based on my understanding

   of the task, I produced the document at:

http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf

   I've brass-boarded the design and all I'm needing

   is a few hours testing on the drive stand to get some

   measurements of currents, voltages and energies involved

   in the process.

   I'm skeptical of the design Eric has proposed . . .

   but the test stand and ultimately the marketplace

   are the gauntlets to be run.

 	  Quote: 	
		  The 10 milliOhm resistor would work as the shunt that many builders use to 

drive an ammeter.  I'm assuming the diode is to keep the battery from 

driving the LT4356-1?

   The write-up suggests that the diode is useful to prevent

   a battery from driving failed alternators (presumably shorted

   diodes).

   Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

etienne.phillips(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

Eric M. Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   http://forums.matronics.com//files/leos_tale_967.pdf


	


Cute story... I don't understand it's relevance to the discussion  

though...? Am I missing something?

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Cabbages and kings . . .

Etienne:

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://forums.matronics.com//files/leos_tale_967.pdf 

 

Cute story... I don't understand it's relevance to the discussion 

though...? Am I missing something? 	




Etienne,



You didn't miss a thing. I just threw it in like a sherbet between courses. I posted this tale on the Glastarnet some years ago. A couple years later a guy sent me an email containing this nice story that he'd heard at a fly-in. 



"He whose in-flowing thoughts are dried up - the way of such a person

is hard to follow, like the path of birds through the sky." - Buddha

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Cabbages and kings . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  The LT4356 does not seem to be suited for standing 

off the uncontrolled runway. The schematic proposed 

does not suggest a means by which an alternator may 

be controlled . . . I'm presuming that the "new 

philosophy" is that the artfully designed system 

of the future does not demand control. I'm not 

aware of how that might be accomplished. 	




The prototyped device is good to 150V. I admit that this may not be the final form, that's why it's called a prototype. The LT4356 doesn't do anything that couldn't have been done earlier. It is just far simpler. The diagram in my paper is not a schematic. Attached is the schematic of my prototype. 



As for the kind offer to re-open old subjects like crowbars, bi-directional Zeners for coil suppression, battery meters (instead of dual batteries), Schottkys, elimination of contactors, etc., etc.--I looked in the mirror this morning and nobody had written "STUPID" on my forehead, so I guess it won't happen. But if I bump my head REALLY HARD, I'll be sure to let you know.

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Cabbages and kings . . .

At 05:53 AM 7/16/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 > The LT4356 does not seem to be suited for standing

 > off the uncontrolled runway. The schematic proposed

 > does not suggest a means by which an alternator may

 > be controlled . . . I'm presuming that the "new

 > philosophy" is that the artfully designed system

 > of the future does not demand control. I'm not

 > aware of how that might be accomplished.

The prototyped device is good to 150V. I admit that this may not be the 

final form, that's why it's called a prototype. The LT4356 doesn't do 

anything that couldn't have been done earlier. It is just far simpler. The 

diagram in my paper is not a schematic. Attached is the schematic of my 

prototype.



As for the kind offer to re-open old subjects like crowbars, 

bi-directional Zeners for coil suppression, battery meters (instead of 

dual batteries), Schottkys, elimination of contactors, etc., etc.--I 

looked in the mirror this morning and nobody had written "STUPID" on my 

forehead, so I guess it won't happen. But if I bump my head REALLY HARD, 

I'll be sure to let you know.


	


    Eric, please allow me to offer a quotation from one

    of my personal heros:



    " . . . there is a kind of responsibility which

    the scientists feel toward each other which can

    represent as a kind of morality. What's the right

    way and the wrong way to report results? Disinterestedly,

    so that the other man is free to understand precisely

    what you are saying, and nearly as possible not

    covering it with your desires. That is a useful thing

    which helps us to understand each other . . ."



   "And so there is, if you will, a kind of scientific

    morality."



   "Advertising, for example, is a scientifically

   immoral description of the products. This immorality

   is so extensive that one gets so used to it in

   ordinary life, that you do not appreciate that

   it is a bad thing."



   These are excerpts from Richard Feynman's remarks

   at the 1964 Galileo Symposium in Italy.



   I found these remarks recently while re-reading

   a book of Feynman's works which you can see parts

   of here. This link takes you right to the page(s)

   where the ideas cited above are found:



   http://tinyurl.com/5jm7xt



   Indeed, let us not re-open old arguments where one

   or more of the participants is engaged in the

   "immorality of advertising" Feynman describes.

   If it suits your purposes better, we need not open

   those discussions for any reason because I have

   no advertising imperatives. Many of my ideas do

   exist in hardware for sale by myself and others

   but that isn't what the List should be about.

   I wish to craft no tolerance for the mindless

   acceptance of advertising here on the List, only

   a quest for understanding borne up by simple-ideas as

   ingredients that go into recipes for success.



   It's the free-market manner in which your version of

   "pancakes" might differ in ingredients from my

   version of "flapjacks". It's the free market that

   can and will pass judgment on our respective

   products based on performance, return on

   investment, customer service and integrity of

   the offerors of such products.



   You have laid your list of ingredients out

   for all of us here on the list and suggested

   a way that they be combined to become a product.

   Why? I can only guess. My hope is that you've

   opened a door to a discussion. This is an activity

   I'm pleased to participate in as long as you're

   not depending upon smearing another person's ideas,

   products or integrity for the purpose of marketing

   your own.



   So the experiment: Would you outline for the List

   the design goals for the device you've described?

   How does it integrate into an OBAM aircraft system

   and what functions is it designed to provide? I'd

   be willing to participate in a critical design

   review not unlike those I enjoyed in my former life.

   There are, I am sure, others on the List who have

   curiosities to satisfy and ideas to contribute.

   You'll be hard pressed to find another group

   so willing to contribute to your success for

   so low a price!



   Bob . . .

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