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Over filling during flight?

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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Over filling during flight?

Hi Guys,



July 14 Monday was perfect. I walked Toby our cat, then packed the 

flight bag and went to the airport. After a lengthy preflight, the plane 

was pulled from the hangar and I did a secondary walk around. All good, 

the tower cleared my request for runway 5. I lifted off in a soft 

downwind, but still short enough for traffic. I set course for Clinton 

and climbed to 3000 ft. On the formerly flooded Mississippi, one could 

see the river traffic moving again and a few recreational boaters. 

Clinton airport was also visible 8-miles out. I passed over the airport 

and entered downwind for 32. Good pattern work, but I flared a foot high 

and just bounced the touchdown. I taxied in and parked to check 

wheel-pants for damage. None was found, so after visiting with the FBO, 

I taxied to 32 and took off, departed west. The header tank was less 

than ¼ full so the left wing pump was turned on. Engine temps were good 

for an 85-degrees ambient. EGTs 1370, oil 220, coolant 198, CHT 210 and 

oil pressure was 48 psi. On turning south for the return, I called Quad 

Cities approach, collected traffic and guidance and nearly forgot to 

track the refill. The header was completely full when I turned off the 

wing pump and centered the selector valve. I felt a chill down my spine, 

because I didn't want to “overfill”. I worried that fumes from spilled 

fuel could trace across the 601’s non-laminar wing to the exhaust pipe's 

back draft and turn the plane into a “roman candle”. I couldn't smell 

any fuel within the cabin. On landing, I taxied back and shut down. 

Inside the header, fuel was 3-inches from the cap and the overflow tube 

was dry. This is the tank's max fill limit. Very relieved, I put the 601 

back in the hangar and drove home with this tidbit chewing on my mind. 

Nice flight, but the wrong kind of adrenaline rush!



The question would be, is it possible to use the EIS to read the full 

point of a common rheostat type tank sensor to set an alarm point?



Or, should one consider a blinking light that constantly runs when 

either of the wing pumps is running.



Or, does anyone have a good "reminder" that the pump is running or the 

tank is nearly full?



Thanks again,



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Sam

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 135

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

_________________
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

Sam,



Your message didn't come through!!  You might want to try it again.



Roger



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

LarryMcFarland wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The question would be, is it possible to use the EIS to read the full 

 point of a common rheostat type tank sensor to set an alarm point?



 Or, should one consider a blinking light that constantly runs when 

 either of the wing pumps is running.



 Or, does anyone have a good "reminder" that the pump is running or the 

 tank is nearly full?



 Thanks again,

It's entirely possible, Larry, but this sounds like an accident waiting 
	


to happen.  If the pilot is distracted and misses the warning, or the 

warning light burns out, what will be the result? 



Some other options you might consider:

- Put a normally closed level switch in the header tank that will 

interrupt the pump in the tank is full.

-Tracey Crook has his RV set up to pull fuel to the engine from one 

tank.  Fuel from the other wing tank is accessed by a transferring it 

over with a second pump.  He put the transfer pump on a timer.  Hit a 

button and you get three minutes of pumping.  Fire and forget scenario.

Sam

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 135

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

_________________
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

At 08:23 PM 7/15/2008 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<larry(at)macsmachine.com>



Hi Guys,



July 14 Monday was perfect. I walked Toby our cat, then packed the flight 

bag and went to the airport. After a lengthy preflight, the plane was 

pulled from the hangar and I did a secondary walk around. All good, the 

tower cleared my request for runway 5. I lifted off in a soft downwind, 

but still short enough for traffic. I set course for Clinton and climbed 

to 3000 ft. On the formerly flooded Mississippi, one could see the river 

traffic moving again and a few recreational boaters. Clinton airport was 

also visible 8-miles out. I passed over the airport and entered downwind 

for 32. Good pattern work, but I flared a foot high and just bounced the 

touchdown. I taxied in and parked to check wheel-pants for damage. None 

was found, so after visiting with the FBO, I taxied to 32 and took off, 

departed west. The header tank was less than ¼ full so the left wing pump 

was turned on. Engine temps were good for an 85-degrees ambient. EGTs 

1370, oil 220, coolant 198, CHT 210 and oil pressure was 48 psi. On 

turning south for the return, I called Quad Cities approach, collected 

traffic and guidance and nearly forgot to track the refill. The header was 

completely full when I turned off the wing pump and centered the selector 

valve. I felt a chill down my spine, because I didn't want to “overfill”. 

I worried that fumes from spilled fuel could trace across the 601’s 

non-laminar wing to the exhaust pipe's back draft and turn the plane into 

a “roman candle”. I couldn't smell any fuel within the cabin. On landing, 

I taxied back and shut down. Inside the header, fuel was 3-inches from the 

cap and the overflow tube was dry. This is the tank's max fill limit. Very 

relieved, I put the 601 back in the hangar and drove home with this tidbit 

chewing on my mind. Nice flight, but the wrong kind of adrenaline rush!



The question would be, is it possible to use the EIS to read the full 

point of a common rheostat type tank sensor to set an alarm point?



Or, should one consider a blinking light that constantly runs when either 

of the wing pumps is running.



Or, does anyone have a good "reminder" that the pump is running or the 

tank is nearly full?



Thanks again,


	


   Absolutely. I've designed several manual and automatic fuel

   transfer systems that spoke to your experience and concerns.

   Consider these thoughts:



   Any automatic or manual fuel transfer system needs to consider

   the potential for overfilling due to inattention and/or failure.

   Some fuel system designers have deduced that the vent system

   on a tank provides some level of protection for over-pressuring

   a tank or spilling fuel into the interior of the aircraft . . . but

   this only prolongs the unhappy surprise that a whole lot of

   fuel went overboard while the pilot was occupied with other things.



   The last auto-transfer system I proposed for a header tank

   auto fill used an array of 3 optical liquid level sensors

   in the tank. See:



http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id 82



   and in particular . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Sensors/ELS900.pdf



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Sensors/ELS1100.pdf



   One sensor was located at 60% of tank capacity and

   wired to light a LOW FUEL warning light and generate

   an alarm tone.



   A second sensor was located at 90% of tank capacity

   and wired to light a FUEL FULL warning light and

   generate an alarm tone.



   The third sensor was at 75% of tank capacity and

   wired to control a transfer pump when in the AUTO

   XFER mode. If controlling a rotary pump (brushed

   motor) we called for a running the pump ANY TIME

   the sensor was exposed - further, a 5 second timer

   was included to make the pump run a minimum of

   5 seconds each time the ON-cycle was tripped.

   This minimized the deleterious effects of

   electrical "chatter" when starting a motor with

   high inrush characteristics. Indeterminate

   submersion at the control-point exacerbated

   by sloshing was filtered out.



   With solid state pumps like Facet



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Pumps/Facet_Solid_State_Pump.pdf



   there is no 'inrush', no contact to arc and

   very fast check valves. Hence, little need for

   a minimum-run timer. On could wire one of these

   pumps directly to a mid-level sensor in the AUTO

   XFER mode to hold the header tank at the CALIBRATED

   capacity as described by physical location of

   the sensor on the tank.



   Bob . . .

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Over filling during flight?

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>



 At 08:23 PM 7/15/2008 -0500, you wrote:

> 

> <larry(at)macsmachine.com>

>

> Hi Guys,

>

> July 14 Monday was perfect. I walked Toby our cat, then packed the 

> flight bag and went to the airport. After a lengthy preflight, the 

> plane was pulled from the hangar and I did a secondary walk around. 

> All good, the tower cleared my request for runway 5. I lifted off in 

> a soft downwind, but still short enough for traffic. I set course for 

> Clinton and climbed to 3000 ft. On the formerly flooded Mississippi, 

> one could see the river traffic moving again and a few recreational 

> boaters. Clinton airport was also visible 8-miles out. I passed over 

> the airport and entered downwind for 32. Good pattern work, but I 

> flared a foot high and just bounced the touchdown. I taxied in and 

> parked to check wheel-pants for damage. None was found, so after 

> visiting with the FBO, I taxied to 32 and took off, departed west. 

> The header tank was less than ¼ full so the left wing pump was turned 

> on. Engine temps were good for an 85-degrees ambient. EGTs 1370, oil 

> 220, coolant 198, CHT 210 and oil pressure was 48 psi. On turning 

> south for the return, I called Quad Cities approach, collected 

> traffic and guidance and nearly forgot to track the refill. The 

> header was completely full when I turned off the wing pump and 

> centered the selector valve. I felt a chill down my spine, because I 

> didn't want to “overfill”. I worried that fumes from spilled fuel 

> could trace across the 601’s non-laminar wing to the exhaust pipe's 

> back draft and turn the plane into a “roman candle”. I couldn't smell 

> any fuel within the cabin. On landing, I taxied back and shut down. 

> Inside the header, fuel was 3-inches from the cap and the overflow 

> tube was dry. This is the tank's max fill limit. Very relieved, I put 

> the 601 back in the hangar and drove home with this tidbit chewing on 

> my mind. Nice flight, but the wrong kind of adrenaline rush!

>

> The question would be, is it possible to use the EIS to read the full 

> point of a common rheostat type tank sensor to set an alarm point?

>

> Or, should one consider a blinking light that constantly runs when 

> either of the wing pumps is running.

>

> Or, does anyone have a good "reminder" that the pump is running or 

> the tank is nearly full?

>

> Thanks again,



 Absolutely. I've designed several manual and automatic fuel

 transfer systems that spoke to your experience and concerns.

 Consider these thoughts:



 Any automatic or manual fuel transfer system needs to consider

 the potential for overfilling due to inattention and/or failure.

 Some fuel system designers have deduced that the vent system

 on a tank provides some level of protection for over-pressuring

 a tank or spilling fuel into the interior of the aircraft . . . but

 this only prolongs the unhappy surprise that a whole lot of

 fuel went overboard while the pilot was occupied with other things.



 The last auto-transfer system I proposed for a header tank

 auto fill used an array of 3 optical liquid level sensors

 in the tank. See:



 http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id 82



 and in particular . . .



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Sensors/ELS900.pdf



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Sensors/ELS1100.pdf



 One sensor was located at 60% of tank capacity and

 wired to light a LOW FUEL warning light and generate

 an alarm tone.



 A second sensor was located at 90% of tank capacity

 and wired to light a FUEL FULL warning light and

 generate an alarm tone.



 The third sensor was at 75% of tank capacity and

 wired to control a transfer pump when in the AUTO

 XFER mode. If controlling a rotary pump (brushed

 motor) we called for a running the pump ANY TIME

 the sensor was exposed - further, a 5 second timer

 was included to make the pump run a minimum of

 5 seconds each time the ON-cycle was tripped.

 This minimized the deleterious effects of

 electrical "chatter" when starting a motor with

 high inrush characteristics. Indeterminate

 submersion at the control-point exacerbated

 by sloshing was filtered out.



 With solid state pumps like Facet



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Pumps/Facet_Solid_State_Pump.pdf



 there is no 'inrush', no contact to arc and

 very fast check valves. Hence, little need for

 a minimum-run timer. On could wire one of these

 pumps directly to a mid-level sensor in the AUTO

 XFER mode to hold the header tank at the CALIBRATED

 capacity as described by physical location of

 the sensor on the tank.



 Bob . . .



 Thanks Bob, for an elegant, yet simple approach. 

It's a minor modification to my header tank and electrical. I believe 
	


one sensor with a panel light to engage my attention

at the header's 75% full mark and disengage the pump switch would be 

easiest to use.



Thank you again for excellent guidance,



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive

 	  Quote:

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Over filling during flight?

This thread brings up an interesting question of 

how to make a penetration to a tank or header.

Ideally I would like a fitting that could be 

snaked into the tank and into a drilled hole in 

the tank, then a jam nut could be tightened from 

the outside to compress a proper o-ring. The 

gadget should have female pipe threads to screw 

the sender into. Not sure how this could be done 

but it sure beats welding on a metal tank or gluing a plastic tank.

Anybody heard of such a gadget?

Thanks, Paul

=========

At 04:02 PM 7/16/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>

>"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>

>

>At 08:23 PM 7/15/2008 -0500, you wrote:

>>

>>LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>

>>

>>Hi Guys,

>>

>>July 14 Monday was perfect. I walked Toby our 

>>cat, then packed the flight bag and went to 

>>the airport. After a lengthy preflight, the 

>>plane was pulled from the hangar and I did a 

>>secondary walk around. All good, the tower 

>>cleared my request for runway 5. I lifted off 

>>in a soft downwind, but still short enough for 

>>traffic. I set course for Clinton and climbed 

>>to 3000 ft. On the formerly flooded 

>>Mississippi, one could see the river traffic 

>>moving again and a few recreational boaters. 

>>Clinton airport was also visible 8-miles out. 

>>I passed over the airport and entered downwind 

>>for 32. Good pattern work, but I flared a foot 

>>high and just bounced the touchdown. I taxied 

>>in and parked to check wheel-pants for damage. 

>>None was found, so after visiting with the 

>>FBO, I taxied to 32 and took off, departed 

>>west. The header tank was less than ¼ full so 

>>the left wing pump was turned on. Engine temps 

>>were good for an 85-degrees ambient. EGTs 

>>1370, oil 220, coolant 198, CHT 210 and oil 

>>pressure was 48 psi. On turning south for the 

>>return, I called Quad Cities approach, 

>>collected traffic and guidance and nearly 

>>forgot to track the refill. The header was 

>>completely full when I turned off the wing 

>>pump and centered the selector valve. I felt a 

>>chill down my spine, because I didn't want to 

>>“overfill”. I worried that fumes from spilled 

>>fuel could trace across the 601’s non-laminar 

>>wing to the exhaust pipe's back draft and turn 

>>the plane into a “roman candle”. I couldn't 

>>smell any fuel within the cabin. On landing, I 

>>taxied back and shut down. Inside the header, 

>>fuel was 3-inches from the cap and the 

>>overflow tube was dry. This is the tank's max 

>>fill limit. Very relieved, I put the 601 back 

>>in the hangar and drove home with this tidbit 

>>chewing on my mind. Nice flight, but the wrong kind of adrenaline rush!

>>

>>The question would be, is it possible to use 

>>the EIS to read the full point of a common 

>>rheostat type tank sensor to set an alarm point?

>>

>>Or, should one consider a blinking light that 

>>constantly runs when either of the wing pumps is running.

>>

>>Or, does anyone have a good "reminder" that 

>>the pump is running or the tank is nearly full?

>>

>>Thanks again,

>

>Absolutely. I've designed several manual and automatic fuel

>transfer systems that spoke to your experience and concerns.

>Consider these thoughts:

>

>Any automatic or manual fuel transfer system needs to consider

>the potential for overfilling due to inattention and/or failure.

>Some fuel system designers have deduced that the vent system

>on a tank provides some level of protection for over-pressuring

>a tank or spilling fuel into the interior of the aircraft . . . but

>this only prolongs the unhappy surprise that a whole lot of

>fuel went overboard while the pilot was occupied with other things.

>

>The last auto-transfer system I proposed for a header tank

>auto fill used an array of 3 optical liquid level sensors

>in the tank. See:

>

>http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id 82

>

>and in particular . . .

>

>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Sensors/ELS900.pdf

>

>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Sensors/ELS1100.pdf

>

>One sensor was located at 60% of tank capacity and

>wired to light a LOW FUEL warning light and generate

>an alarm tone.

>

>A second sensor was located at 90% of tank capacity

>and wired to light a FUEL FULL warning light and

>generate an alarm tone.

>

>The third sensor was at 75% of tank capacity and

>wired to control a transfer pump when in the AUTO

>XFER mode. If controlling a rotary pump (brushed

>motor) we called for a running the pump ANY TIME

>the sensor was exposed - further, a 5 second timer

>was included to make the pump run a minimum of

>5 seconds each time the ON-cycle was tripped.

>This minimized the deleterious effects of

>electrical "chatter" when starting a motor with

>high inrush characteristics. Indeterminate

>submersion at the control-point exacerbated

>by sloshing was filtered out.

>

>With solid state pumps like Facet

>

>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Pumps/Facet_Solid_State_Pump.pdf

>

>there is no 'inrush', no contact to arc and

>very fast check valves. Hence, little need for

>a minimum-run timer. On could wire one of these

>pumps directly to a mid-level sensor in the AUTO

>XFER mode to hold the header tank at the CALIBRATED

>capacity as described by physical location of

>the sensor on the tank.

>

>Bob . . .

>

>Thanks Bob, for an elegant, yet simple approach.

It's a minor modification to my header tank and 

electrical. I believe one sensor with a panel light to engage my attention

at the header's 75% full mark and disengage the 

pump switch would be easiest to use.



Thank you again for excellent guidance,



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

Sure..In the airpane world this is done with a bulkhead AN fitting that is gooped with proseal on the outside. This only gives you an AN flared fitting however.



Alternatively you can get a female pipe thread with a base flange that maybe rivetted onto the tank with blind rivets..Once again the fitting is sealed with Proseal (otherwise known as black death). These are usually used for fuel drains and come with a female pipe thread.



Proseal is available is one ounce mini tubs from Vans aircraft.



Frank

601 HDS 400 hours

RV7a 300 Hours



--

jpx(at)Qenesis.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Over filling during flight?

Larry,



Visit Aircraft Spruce and check out product number 10-00399, which is  

the AE Fuel Guardian.  It consists of two optical fuel level sensors  

that work by detecting the change in reflectance of the lens.  I  

bought some for my aircraft and was concerned that a drop of fuel  

still on the lens might produce an incorrect reading.  Nope, I played  

around dipping them in and out of some water.  They respond rapidly  

and immediately, no matter how I tried to fool them.  Not a cheap  

product, but it seems a high quality one.  Drill as small hole in your  

tank.  A threaded nut goes on the inside, trapping rubber washers.   

(Note - this is an uncommon metric thread).



Jeff Page

Dream Aircraft Tundra #10



 	  Quote: 	
		   It's a minor modification to my header tank and electrical. I believe

 one sensor with a panel light to engage my attention

 at the header's 75% full mark and disengage the pump switch would be

 easiest to use.



 Thank you again for excellent guidance,



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

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