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Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Last year I flew across from Big Sable point in Michigan to Manitowoc, WI. Less than an hour over the water, at 70 mph. Climbed to 8500 feet before going feet wet and stayed in contact with lake reporting service (122.450). For me it was much shorter and, all things considered, probably alot safer that flying around Chicago airspace. 

  

do not archive 

  

Marco Menezes N99KX 

Model 2 582-90 C-Box



--- On Mon, 7/21/08, n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 [quote]From: n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Oshkosh group camping

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 5:05 PM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>  I fly the shoreline from time to time as I'm located at Schaumburg, and previously waukegan. Truth is there is pretty much nowhere to land, and even if you aim for the clearest spot you can find it likely has a bunch of  people on the ground. Best bet carry life preservers and stay close to the sail boats which are always around.  Worse comes to worse it's only about 30 minutes of high pucker factor  anyway  after Gary:)  Regards, Jeff     Read this topic online here:  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194205#194205                [quote][b]

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

What is it about flying over large expanses of water that makes many of 

us nervous?  I always felt better if I can at least stay within gliding 

distance of land.



Hope to meet you and Lynn there next week.



Do not archive



-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

Marco Menezes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Last year I flew across from Big Sable point in Michigan to Manitowoc, 

 WI. Less than an hour over the water, at 70 mph. Climbed to 8500 feet 

 before going feet wet and stayed in contact with lake reporting 

 service (122.450). For me it was much shorter and, all things 

 considered, probably alot safer that flying around Chicago airspace.



  



 do not archive



  



 Marco Menezes N99KX



 Model 2 582-90 C-Box

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

The guy (Pete) with the Peitenpol (sp?) next to me flew over the  

water at 300' he said. Flying any higher just "prolonged the agony"  

if he conked out, he said. No thanks, says I.  : )



I asked my instructor yesterday if there were any other reasons for  

not going over the water, other than (for me) common sense, and he  

said because you're not instrument rated. I'm not up to speed on the  

water ruling...anybody know if this is true, or was he just giving me  

another reason to stay dry? : )



With all the weather that I've encountered so far, if I decided to  

fly the water, a storm would come up just to prove a point.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs

do not archive



On Jul 22, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Marco Menezes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Last year I flew across from Big Sable point in Michigan to  

 Manitowoc, WI. Less than an hour over the water, at 70 mph. Climbed  

 to 8500 feet before going feet wet and stayed in contact with lake  

 reporting service (122.450). For me it was much shorter and, all  

 things considered, probably alot safer that flying around Chicago  

 airspace.

 do not archive

 Marco Menezes N99KX



 Model 2 582-90 C-Box



 --- On Mon, 7/21/08, n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 From: n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh group camping

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 5:05 PM



 

 the shoreline from time to time as I'm located at Schaumburg, and  

 previously waukegan. Truth is there is pretty much nowhere to land,  

 and even if you aim for the clearest spot you can find it likely  

 has a bunch of people on the ground. Best bet carry life preservers  

 and stay close to the sail boats which are always around. Worse  

 comes to worse it's only about 30 minutes of high pucker factor  

 anyway after Gary:) Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here:  

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194205#194205 _- 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 _- 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Marco -



I'm home based at Schaumburg (06C) just to the west of O'Hare (ORD)

flying around the Class B is not tricky, I think it more has to do with

people being nervous around the perceived difficult airspace. Every

year during Oshkosh they put up additional ATC service's in the area.

If you pick up flight following say around Gary they will hand you off to 

their special Oshkosh controllers who will help you get around the

Class B. It's very simple and very safe. 



I fly over the lake a bit, and I can tell you it is NOT safe. I have a 

Hangar neighbor who does the Lake crossing regularly enroute to

Traverse City, what he does is calculate when the Ferry from 

Milwaukee to Mich will be halfway and plans his flight over the ferry

route. Even with life preservers it is NOT a safe flight, and he 

readily admits it. 



I'm not saying don't do it ... But given how simple it really is to go

around the Class B with ATC assist, if you aren't in a hurry I can't

see any good reason to fly over the Lake versus negotiating the 

Class B.



The biggest danger I find under the Class B is the towers just west 

ORD and a few to the south of 06C if you know they are there it's

not a problem. 



I think calling ATC and asking for flight following around the ORD 

Class B during Oshkosh is by far the safest way to go. They may 

even have special procedures in place which will allow you inside

parts of the Class B, depending on what approaches the Airliners 

are using into O'Hare on the particular day of the flight.  



Regards,

Jeff

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Lynn,

 I don't think there is a FAR restriction in uncontrolled airspace for 

over water flight if not for hire. I believe there are cautionary 

statements about the hazards of encountering IFR conditions which could 

develop rapidly. Even in certain VFR conditions overcast and haze could 

blend the water/sky horizon to make it indistinguishable. (Until you hit 

the water, that is.)  

 If you've got a good blue sky with only a few clouds it's probably up 

to you and your pucker factor.



-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

Lynn Matteson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The guy (Pete) with the Peitenpol (sp?) next to me flew over the  

 water at 300' he said. Flying any higher just "prolonged the agony"  

 if he conked out, he said. No thanks, says I.  : )



 I asked my instructor yesterday if there were any other reasons for  

 not going over the water, other than (for me) common sense, and he  

 said because you're not instrument rated. I'm not up to speed on the  

 water ruling...anybody know if this is true, or was he just giving me  

 another reason to stay dry? : )



 With all the weather that I've encountered so far, if I decided to  

 fly the water, a storm would come up just to prove a point.



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: flying w/547+ hrs

 do not archive

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

I can understand Marco wanting to go over the water, as he'd probably  

have to fly 300 miles further to leave Mid-Michigan (where he's  

located) and go around either to the south around Chicago, or north  

around the Upper Michigan shoreline. Believe me, I'd have to think  

several times about flying all that distance if I lived where he  

does. But if I did fly over the water, I would bust my Sport Pilot- 

induced 10,000' altitude limit in a heartbeat. For me, the fear would  

be that section in the middle of the trip where the glide would not  

work, either coming back or going forward. I love and trust my Jabiru  

engine, but I don't trust Mr Murphy. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs

do not archive



On Jul 22, 2008, at 12:41 PM, n85ae wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Marco -



 I'm home based at Schaumburg (06C) just to the west of O'Hare (ORD)

 flying around the Class B is not tricky, I think it more has to do  

 with

 people being nervous around the perceived difficult airspace. Every

 year during Oshkosh they put up additional ATC service's in the area.

 If you pick up flight following say around Gary they will hand you  

 off to

 their special Oshkosh controllers who will help you get around the

 Class B. It's very simple and very safe.



 I fly over the lake a bit, and I can tell you it is NOT safe. I have a

 Hangar neighbor who does the Lake crossing regularly enroute to

 Traverse City, what he does is calculate when the Ferry from

 Milwaukee to Mich will be halfway and plans his flight over the ferry

 route. Even with life preservers it is NOT a safe flight, and he

 readily admits it.



 I'm not saying don't do it ... But given how simple it really is to go

 around the Class B with ATC assist, if you aren't in a hurry I can't

 see any good reason to fly over the Lake versus negotiating the

 Class B.



 The biggest danger I find under the Class B is the towers just west

 ORD and a few to the south of 06C if you know they are there it's

 not a problem.



 I think calling ATC and asking for flight following around the ORD

 Class B during Oshkosh is by far the safest way to go. They may

 even have special procedures in place which will allow you inside

 parts of the Class B, depending on what approaches the Airliners

 are using into O'Hare on the particular day of the flight.



 Regards,

 Jeff





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194386#194386

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Rex,



I guess flying over large expanses of water has to do with an earlier thread 

that suggested that it would be wise to always be prepared for an engine 

problem.  After our forced landing, the most frequent comment from my 

passenger (read) wife, has something to do with our good fortune at having 

the problem arise within ten minutes of departure rather than 30 minutes. 

The ten minutes resulted in us landing on a piece of property where the 

owner just happened to be sweeping out his barn and we were within a mile or 

two of a fully staffed fire station.  All the help we needed and more was 

plane side within 5 minutes.  The thirty minutes would have most certainly 

placed us over some very rugged terrain at the higher elevations of the 

Sierra Nevada Mountains, just short of Lake Tahoe.  It might have been hours 

before help would have arrived.



We were in the hospital when word came that  Steve Faucett was lost in 

eastern Nevada while exploring dry lake beds for a possible land speed 

record attempt.  He is still missing and the search effort was enormous. 

Due to the total lack of any sign of him or his airplane, some speculate 

that a water landing was involved.



Lowell



---

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Actually I'll be on the Ferry with my wife and kids on Saturday

going to Michigan to go sailing next week. Anybody want to do 

a low flyby of the Ferry mid lake I'll be happy to send you your

overwater pics. 



Lynn you are in Grass Lake? Do you ever fly in and out of Napolean 

3NP? I have a good friend that lives there and occasionally fly in to 

Napolean



If I didn't screw up the attachments here's two lakeshore views from

the East side of the City. One is Northbound just past Gary, the other

is southbound just off of Waukegan . As you can see you would be

swimming for sure if you lose a motor here.

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Thanks Rex....I think with my track record of "causing weather to  

develop" whenever I make plans to go somewhere, I'll just play it  

safe and stick to land. No sense in testing the "other" P-factor. : )  

One of these days maybe I'll give the return trip over water a  

thought, with the winds more favorable that way, and therefore less  

"clench-time" involved.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs

do not archive



On Jul 22, 2008, at 1:04 PM, Rexinator wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn,

 I don't think there is a FAR restriction in uncontrolled airspace  

 for over water flight if not for hire. I believe there are  

 cautionary statements about the hazards of encountering IFR  

 conditions which could develop rapidly. Even in certain VFR  

 conditions overcast and haze could blend the water/sky horizon to  

 make it indistinguishable. (Until you hit the water, that is.)  

 If you've got a good blue sky with only a few clouds it's probably  

 up to you and your pucker factor.



 -- 

 Rex Hefferan

 SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

 Lynn Matteson wrote:



> 

>

> The guy (Pete) with the Peitenpol (sp?) next to me flew over the   

> water at 300' he said. Flying any higher just "prolonged the  

> agony"  if he conked out, he said. No thanks, says I.  : )

>

> I asked my instructor yesterday if there were any other reasons  

> for  not going over the water, other than (for me) common sense,  

> and he  said because you're not instrument rated. I'm not up to  

> speed on the  water ruling...anybody know if this is true, or was  

> he just giving me  another reason to stay dry? : )

>

> With all the weather that I've encountered so far, if I decided  

> to  fly the water, a storm would come up just to prove a point.

>

> Lynn Matteson

> Kitfox IV Speedster

> Jabiru 2200

> Status: flying w/547+ hrs

> do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

At 10:04 AM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I believe there are cautionary statements about the hazards of 

encountering IFR conditions which could develop rapidly. Even in 

certain VFR conditions overcast and haze could blend the water/sky 

horizon to make it indistinguishable. (Until you hit the water, that is.)


	


         I did this during my flight training. Flying south-east out 

of Catalina Island at dusk the whole sky went pink top to bottom, 

left to right. I was in hard IFR for about 1/2 hour. Even with my 

instructor on board my sphincter was double tight. She told me these 

were the conditions in which Kennedy crashed. Scary.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

lynn,

 you are much more likely to lose your visual reference to the horizon as it 

may blend into the sky over water with no land in sight.   bob noffs

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

I fly into Napoleon almost every time I fly. I hangared my plane  

there until my instructor felt it was safe for me to "go home."  (I  

had to carry fuel from my place, 2.5 miles away, and that got to  be  

old real quick) One day while soloing, I decided I could go home for  

fuel and I did. I told instructor about that and he wanted to be  

shown...three landings and he signed me off for my home field.  

Napoleon is a nice little (2400' on the short one) pair of runways,  

with a diner within 200 feet of the parking "ramp." I'm trying to get  

it's owner to send info into "$100 Hamburger" so she'll get more  

customers. She has 59 pictures of aircraft on the walls....all  

customers who have stopped in to eat. She also has ice cream, and  

it's a non-smoking facility, unlike the one down the street which  

smells like an ashtray.

Stop by and have your planes' picture taken...who is the friend...a  

pilot?



Boy, do those shots look familiar.....when I flew up to Osh for the  

skiplane fly-in in 2007, I passed through Gary's (over edge of the  

water) space and asked for permission to fly through at 1800', and by  

the time they granted it, I was down to 1600. Mu instructor asked me  

later if I saw any apartment tenants waving *down* at me. : ) I had  

to admit I was pretty busy at the time, and didn't notice.



The southbound picture is also familiar, although visibility is much  

better than when I did it. I had just left Osh, had a brief encounter  

at Chicago Executive (which I haven't revealed to this forum  

yet...maybe over a beer at Osh), then flew southeast, avoiding  

Gary...they were busy with SVFR's. On the way southeast, I had flight  

following going for me, and they alerted me to traffic, which I saw,  

but they didn't tell me about a tethered balloon, or sign, or some  

such thing, which was at my altitude. I had to guess where the cable  

was given the wind clues, and avoided that like the plague...ah yes,  

fond memories of Lake Michigan's southern shores.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs

do not archive



On Jul 22, 2008, at 1:25 PM, n85ae wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Actually I'll be on the Ferry with my wife and kids on Saturday

 going to Michigan to go sailing next week. Anybody want to do

 a low flyby of the Ferry mid lake I'll be happy to send you your

 overwater pics. 



 Lynn you are in Grass Lake? Do you ever fly in and out of Napolean

 3NP? I have a good friend that lives there and occasionally fly in to

 Napolean



 If I didn't screw up the attachments here's two lakeshore views from

 the East side of the City. One is Northbound just past Gary, the other

 is southbound just off of Waukegan . As you can see you would be

 swimming for sure if you lose a motor here.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194403#194403





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/im001176_379.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/im001182_161.jpg

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

Exactly as I was told, and feared over. Nope, I don't need this water  

stuff to ruin my day...maybe if I get instrument rated, but I don't  

know if that's even available in Sport Pilot...no, wait, it is  

NOT...VFR only, and that would rule out flying with the horizon and  

the water merging, as you mention, Bob. I would have visual contact  

with the "ground" but I don't think that's what they had in mind when  

they wrote it up.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs





On Jul 22, 2008, at 4:19 PM, bob noffs wrote:



[quote] 



 lynn,

 you are much more likely to lose your visual reference to the  

 horizon as it may blend into the sky over water with no land in  

 sight.   bob noffs

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

We'll be heading over mid week.  The water crossing will be less stressful this 

year with the floats below me.  Crossing from Ludington to manitowoc and direct to 

the seaplane base.  Paul Seehafer usually has his Kitfox parked at the base as well.

One year while crossing on the ferry, a Robinson R44 helicopter passed next to us 

at about 100' off the water.  Other than an attempt at restarting probably no need 

to go higher.  Talk about pucker factor!

Hope to see you all there!

Kevin Cozik

Series 6-7

914 turbo

Czech amphibs

Lansing Michigan

On Tue Jul 22 18:24 , Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> sent:

[quote]

Exactly as I was told, and feared over. Nope, I don't need this water  

stuff to ruin my day...maybe if I get instrument rated, but I don't  

know if that's even available in Sport Pilot...no, wait, it is  

NOT...VFR only, and that would rule out flying with the horizon and  

the water merging, as you mention, Bob. I would have visual contact  

with the "ground" but I don't think that's what they had in mind when  

they wrote it up.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs

On Jul 22, 2008, at 4:19 PM, bob noffs wrote:

> 

>

> lynn,

> you are much more likely to lose your visual reference to the  

> horizon as it may blend into the sky over water with no land in  

> sight.   bob noffs

> ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Over the big lake - was Oshkosh group camping

That's the best argument I've heard in a long while for some IFR training for all pilots.  When I started training we had a day with a lot of haze.  At 5000 plus feet, where most training was done, it was hard to tell when everything was straight and level.  The horizon had completely disappeared.  Of course unlike water as we got closer to the ground the haze disappeared and orientation returned.    

   

Some day you should try landing on glassy water...   When you touch you never really believe you're down until you are taxiing.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8EC45.81D704B0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

912 is getting close, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

   

   

--

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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