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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
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 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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I'm trying to remember if you allready tryed this C but I would contact the FAA directly. I've delt with the Minneapolis FSDO several times on 2 different planes C and they were quite helpfull. If you don't get answers from one FSDO C try another. If that doesn't work C there should be someone who you can talk to in the FAA headquarters in Oklahoma. As I understand it C the exhibition catagory is very limiting and I wouldn't want it. If you were close to MN I know a DAR from Duluth that charged $450 for an Avid that had no build log or original bill of sale due to the death of the originial builder (it was sold by his widow to a friend of mine who finished up the last 20 percent or so of the plane) This DAR worked with the new owner and the FAA and got it inspected and registered. It seems we often have a hard time useing the phone C I know I do C but persistence can payoff. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 Mn
| Quote: | From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Imported UK Kitfox C Airworthiness Certificate C and DARs
Date: Fri C 25 Jul 2008 10:29:51 -0400
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Hi all - it's the guy with the grounded UK Model II again:
I met with my local DAR and handed over my box of documentation C and asked
for an Airworthiness Certificate. The airplane was built in 1991 and flown
in the UK as a "microlight".
He said I could not get Light Sport because it specifically excludes foreign
aircraft with previous Airworthiness Certification although he stated he
could not find the Certificate in my documentation. Further research on my
part shows it was flown with a Permit To Fly C which according to the CAA is
only issued to aircraft that are ineligible for an ICAO C of A. I have yet
to present this info to the DAR.
He also said I cannot apply for Experimental-Amateur Homebuilt because I do
not have build logs from the original builder C who I believe is deceased.
Specifically he says I need to prove the 51% rule even though at the time
Denney did not offer a fast-build option or completed aircraft C only kits.
He suggested I apply as Exhibition but I would have to re-apply each year
and supply a list of events I intend to fly to "exhibit" the airplane and
would be restricted to only those flights and "preparation" flying within 1
tank of my home airport. My feeling about this suggestion is that it *sucks*
and even though it would get me in the air this season it would limit if not
eliminate the chance of going Light Sport or Experimental in the future C
even though he says I can.
He also stated at the end of the last meeting that he "gets $600" for the AC
and that he has already accrued 2 hours of chargeable time so far.
So my question to listers is - what do you think of the suggestion to apply
for an Exhibition AC and the possibilities and expense of getting a proper
AC after? And are the suggested fees standard and/or reasonable? I plan to
argue the rejections but am hesitant if I am going to be charged by the hour
to educate a DAR in issuing a CA to an imported aircraft.
Thanks in advance for opinions/advice/similar experiences C
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
&===============
|
[quote]
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.
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valleyairport(at)cotterwe
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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Look for an amateur built DAR. There may be a list on the EAA web. I think the cost is for expenses only. And as suggested, the FAA should be able to help you.
Jay C.
[quote] ---
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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Bob:
I agree with Jim. DAR's are, afterall paid by the hour. Any such system of private contractors doing the government's work for a fee is ripe for abuse. Some contractors are more knowledgable, some more honest than others. The government, i.e. the FAA, on the other hand, is the ultimate source of all knowledge regarding things regulatory. It's employees are paid the same salary regardless of how many hours they spend doing the government's work (or, apparently, playing golf). You may have to wait longer, but they will help you find a way to license your airplane.
Some words of caution . . . keep your questions hypothetical and don't file anything until you are certain of the procedure that will get you where you want to go. Otherwise, "incorrect" statements made in government filings can come back to bite you in the a** and may prove difficult to undo
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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I'm curious, couldn't you hypothetically buy a totaled Kitfox and attach all of your good parts to it except for the ID plate?
Pete
[quote] ---
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Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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Incorrect statements are *exactly* what I am trying to avoid - and thanks for that very accurate advice!
This DAR was recommended by the local FAA office as well as lots of people at the Cub Haven fly-in where he is well respected. His name is on the FAA website as my most local DAR although his business card states "FAA Principal Airworthiness Inspector, Retired". There are also 2 DAR numbers on his card and when I first called him he was at an FAA annual course to re-qualify for his DAR status (I think).
It all sounds impressive, except for the $600 for the AC, an hourly charge, plus expenses when he drives here to look at the plane. I am simply covering the bases to be sure I get my money's worth.
I just spoke with him on the phone and hopefully have resolved any issues his FAA contact had about applying for Light Sport. All fingers crossed...
Does anyone else have invoices/memories of the cost of getting their Airworthiness Certificate? My plane has been flying for 17 years with rigorous annual inspections - one would think it would be a lot simpler to certify as airworthy than a kit fresh out of the garage!
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 25 July 2008 12:50 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs
Bob:
I agree with Jim. DAR's are, afterall paid by the hour. Any such system of private contractors doing the government's work for a fee is ripe for abuse. Some contractors are more knowledgable, some more honest than others. The government, i.e. the FAA, on the other hand, is the ultimate source of all knowledge regarding things regulatory. It's employees are paid the same salary regardless of how many hours they spend doing the government's work (or, apparently, playing golf). You may have to wait longer, but they will help you find a way to license your airplane.
Some words of caution . . . keep your questions hypothetical and don't file anything until you are certain of the procedure that will get you where you want to go. Otherwise, "incorrect" statements made in government filings can come back to bite you in the a** and may prove difficult to undo.
Good luck.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box
--- On Fri, 7/25/08, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 11:04 AM
#yiv1967698181 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } #yiv1967698181 { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } I'm trying to remember if you allready tryed this, but I would contact the FAA directly. I've delt with the Minneapolis FSDO several times on 2 different planes, and they were quite helpfull. If you don't get answers from one FSDO, try another. If that doesn't work, there should be someone who you can talk to in the FAA headquarters in Oklahoma. As I understand it, the exhibition catagory is very limiting and I wouldn't want it. If you were close to MN I know a DAR from Duluth that charged $450 for an Avid that had no build log or original bill of sale due to the death of the originial builder (it was sold by his widow to a friend of mine who finished up the last 20 percent or so of the plane) This DAR worked with the new owner and the FAA and got it inspected and registered. It seems we often have a hard time useing the phone, I know I do, but persistence can payoff. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 Mn
| Quote: | From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:29:51 -0400
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Hi all - it's the guy with the grounded UK Model II again:
I met with my local DAR and handed over my box of documentation, and asked
for an Airworthiness Certificate. The airplane was built in 1991 and flown
in the UK as a "microlight".
He said I could not get Light Sport because it specifically excludes foreign
aircraft with previous Airworthiness Certification although he stated he
could not find the Certificate in my documentation. Further research on my
part shows it was flown with a Permit To Fly, which according to the CAA is
only issued to aircraft that are ineligible for an ICAO C of A. I have yet
to present this info to the DAR.
He also said I cannot apply for Experimental-Amateur Homebuilt because I do
not have build logs from the original builder, who I believe is deceased.
Specifically he says I need to prove the 51% rule even though at the time
Denney did not offer a fast-build option or completed aircraft, only kits.
He suggested I apply as Exhibition but I would have to re-apply each year
and supply a list of events I intend to fly to "exhibit" the airplane and
would be restricted to only those flights and "preparation" flying within 1
tank of my home airport. My feeling about this suggestion is that it *sucks*
and even though it would get me in the air this season it would limit if not
eliminate the chance of going Light Sport or Experimental in the future,
even though he says I can.
He also stated at the end of the last meeting that he "gets $600" for the AC
and that he has already accrued 2 hours of chargeable time so far.
So my question to listers is - what do you think of the suggestion to apply
for an Exhibition AC and the possibilities and expense of getting a proper
AC after? And are the suggested fees standard and/or reasonable? I plan to
argue the rejections but am hesitant if I am going to be charged by the hour
to educate a DAR in issuing a CA to an imported aircraft.
Thanks in advance for opinions/advice/similar experiences,
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
&===============
|
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.
|
[quote]
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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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Hi Jim - thanks for the advice, please see my reply for more details.
I started by going to the local FAA and they gave me the DARs name to contact. I'm not sure why but my DAR took all of the documentation and the application to an FAA "friend" who wrote the rejection letter, so I am a bit confused as to who actually has the authority to issue the Airworthiness Certificate. Fortunately, as Jim pointed out, the FAA guy said he couldn't issue a "formal" rejection letter because the application had not been filled out in full. Thank goodness for details. Sometimes.....
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
Sent: 25 July 2008 11:04 am
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs
I'm trying to remember if you allready tryed this, but I would contact the FAA directly. I've delt with the Minneapolis FSDO several times on 2 different planes, and they were quite helpfull. If you don't get answers from one FSDO, try another. If that doesn't work, there should be someone who you can talk to in the FAA headquarters in Oklahoma. As I understand it, the exhibition catagory is very limiting and I wouldn't want it. If you were close to MN I know a DAR from Duluth that charged $450 for an Avid that had no build log or original bill of sale due to the death of the originial builder (it was sold by his widow to a friend of mine who finished up the last 20 percent or so of the plane) This DAR worked with the new owner and the FAA and got it inspected and registered. It seems we often have a hard time useing the phone, I know I do, but persistence can payoff. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 Mn
| Quote: | From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:29:51 -0400
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Hi all - it's the guy with the grounded UK Model II again:
I met with my local DAR and handed over my box of documentation, and asked
for an Airworthiness Certificate. The airplane was built in 1991 and flown
in the UK as a "microlight".
He said I could not get Light Sport because it specifically excludes foreign
aircraft with previous Airworthiness Certification although he stated he
could not find the Certificate in my documentation. Further research on my
part shows it was flown with a Permit To Fly, which according to the CAA is
only issued to aircraft that are ineligible for an ICAO C of A. I have yet
to present this info to the DAR.
He also said I cannot apply for Experimental-Amateur Homebuilt because I do
not have build logs from the original builder, who I believe is deceased.
Specifically he says I need to prove the 51% rule even though at the time
Denney did not offer a fast-build option or completed aircraft, only kits.
He suggested I apply as Exhibition but I would have to re-apply each year
and supply a list of events I intend to fly to "exhibit" the airplane and
would be restricted to only those flights and "preparation" flying within 1
tank of my home airport. My feeling about this suggestion is that it *sucks*
and even though it would get me in the air this season it would limit if not
eliminate the chance of going Light Sport or Experimental in the future,
even though he says I can.
He also stated at the end of the last meeting that he "gets $600" for the AC
and that he has already accrued 2 hours of chargeable time so far.
So my question to listers is - what do you think of the suggestion to apply
for an Exhibition AC and the possibilities and expense of getting a proper
AC after? And are the suggested fees standard and/or reasonable? I plan to
argue the rejections but am hesitant if I am going to be charged by the hour
to educate a DAR in issuing a CA to an imported aircraft.
Thanks in advance for opinions/advice/similar experiences,
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
&===============
|
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online. [quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dcsfoto
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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Get in touch with EAA they have a deal with DARs to charge expenses only and the DAR is protected from lawsuits by doing the certification for free under a non-profit org.
Most DARs in the Arkansas area charge around $450.00
I charge $450.00 and donate it to my EAA chapter.
David
FAA DAR Maintenance and Manufacturing
Kitfox 7 and 3
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Tom Jones
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Imported UK Kitfox, Airworthiness Certificate, and DARs |
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| Quote: | | Does anyone else have invoices/memories of the cost of getting their Airworthiness Certificate? |
May 5, 2000, $332.50. This included 300 miles round trip travel and motel costs split with another plane he inspected the same trip. He spent about an hour going through my builders log and paper work and about two hours inspecting the kitfox.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA |
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