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seattle

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

Just thought I'd see if there are any 640 builders who care to check in.  I'm beginning to think that about 3 of these things have ever been built.  Let's see who's in the community.



Year completed, hours to build, pictures, true performance numbers, etc.?



As for me...... Hope to get started in a couple of months.



Thanks to those who chime in.

cj.tremblay(at)videotron.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

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Concerning the number of ch640 builded, I had identified 5 airplanes builder

at this day.

If you need more info on that topic I can send you photographies.



Christian Tremblay

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan

http://www.zodiac640.com/



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<P><SPAN LANG="fr-ca"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Concerning the number of ch640 builded, I had identified 5 airplanes builder at this day.</FONT></SPAN>



<BR><SPAN LANG="fr-ca"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">If you need more info on that topic I can send you photographies.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-ca"></SPAN>

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<P><SPAN LANG="en-ca"><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Christian Tremblay</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="fr-ca"></SPAN>



<BR><SPAN LANG="fr-ca"><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan<BR>

</FONT></SPAN><A HREF="http://www.zodiac640.com/"><SPAN LANG="fr-ca"><U></U><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">http://www.zodiac640.com/</FONT></U></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="fr-ca"></SPAN>

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cj.tremblay(at)videotron.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

Sorry lee



I don't want to say "builders" but "completed airplane". I have a Power

Point presentation of those 5 planes completed. I can't post this Power

Point presentation on this forum, but if you send me your email adress, I

can send you this file.



The number of builders are more numerous. I buy the plan number 59, 2 years

ago, I think Zenith had sold nearly 100 plans (for sratch plan builders). 



I don't know the number of complete kits sold at this days.

Christian Tremblay

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan

http://www.zodiac640.com/



--

dgeese(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

Christian is correct.  As far as I know there are 5 completed CH 640’s including the prototype.  I have been building from the slow build kit since May of 2002 with serial #0041.  I’m hoping to fly sometime this summer.  I’m working on finishing the panel wiring, pitot/static system, and vacuum system before I permantly install the canopy and doors.  I also have a few items to complete on the engine installation.  I’ve had the wings on but they are currently removed to save space in the hangar.  



 



Do not archive



 



Doug Geese



www.tropra.com

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

I am one of the 5 completed and flying, serial number 52, finished almost 3 years ago. With just over 600 hours, I probably have the most hours on the airframe other than the prototype. So far I have found no problems with the airframe and am very happy with the planes performance. 



Steve Adams

N621J

seattle

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

I'm making plans to go see one of the completed 640's in the next couple of weeks.  It sounds like if the performance is really 125 kts true and 1400 fpm climb that it'll be a good match for my family.  



This may be a stupid question but....  With gull wing doors, is an in-flight opening more of an issue?  It seems to me that if one of those came open in flight it would rip right off.  Is there a loft to the door which keeps pressure on it?  Thanks.



Craig

xl(at)prosody.org
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

I built + fly a 601XL, but what the heck, I'll chime in anyway.

I read all of the ntsb probable causes listed in:

http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/ntsb/

(BTW, I've updated the page to remove duplicates and enable sorting.)



There is an NTSB report of an AMD CH-2000 with clam shell doors.

The door hinges failed, the door opened + departed.

Event Date = 12/17/2004, location = Jean, NV, Make / Model =

AMD CH-2000, N285AM.



Joe E (at) BFI

CH601XL, 509 hours

On Sun, 4 May 2008, seattle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm making plans to go see one of the completed 640's in the next 

 couple of weeks.  It sounds like if the performance is really 125 kts 

 true and 1400 fpm climb that it'll be a good match for my family.



 This may be a stupid question but....  With gull wing doors, is an 

 in-flight opening more of an issue?  It seems to me that if one of those 

 came open in flight it would rip right off.  Is there a loft to the door 

 which keeps pressure on it?  Thanks.



 Craig

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

There have been instances of the doors departing in flight on the Alarus. There was a modification of the latch mechanism so there are 2 positive stops when latching; the first a kind of safety stop, and the second fully closed. There is quite a bit of negative pressure on the doors when flying, so obviously you need to ensure the latches are fully closed and brief all passengers not to open the latch in flight. In fact, they are placarded not to be open when the engine is running. I have seen people taxi with the door partially open by holding the outside latch handle, but it seems to me that puts a lot of stress on the hinge area and could weaken the attachment. Unlike some aircraft with clamshell doors, the latch mechanism is quite simple and easy to check to ensure it is closed. I also check the hinges as part of the preflight. 



As far as cruise speed. At 7-8000 feet I cruise at 130kts TAS.

SteveCH640

Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 4
Location: San Diego, CA

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

I am a CH640 builder. Checking in.

My site is.



 http://www.reintek.com/Planeindex.htm



I have stopped to re think the situation. 

I have had mixed emotion about the quality and support.



I think I might go forward, but I am now stopped by a big optical development project filling my garage.  That is my main income.

Tryied  the back seat at AirVenture, is was a joke. It was a two place plane with a large seat shaped luggage area.  If the new mod moves it back 4 inches, then it might go from a joke to a really cramped back seat for really small people.

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

 	  SteveCH640 wrote: 	
		  



I have stopped to re think the situation. 

I have had mixed emotion about the quality and support.



I think I might go forward, but I am now stopped by a big optical development project filling my garage.  That is my main income.

Tryied  the back seat at AirVenture, is was a joke. It was a two place plane with a large seat shaped luggage area.  If the new mod moves it back 4 inches, then it might go from a joke to a really cramped back seat for really small people. 	




Steve, I have similar sense about the support of the 640. They will unabashedly tell you that since the 640 isn't a big seller like the 701/601/801, it simply will not get further attention. Mr. Tremblay and others have identified errors in the prints, that have not been addressed. The website has broken links, that haven't been addressed. CH2000 Alurus production is now a special order only operation with the new LSA models taking precedence. Still, this is the aircraft I have chosen, and I intend to follow it to completion, regardless of any obstacle.

I don't know what you are referring to when you say "new mod". I don't think there will ever be any further updates for the 640.

Even though the 640 is billed as a four place, I knew it is only a 2+2. The useful load however is still 1,000 lbs, and as I don't have any intention of flying with rear seat passengers, the aircraft still fit my mission requirements for less money than any other design, as well as, in my view, a simpler construction method.

I found that if you CALL Zenair in Canada as a follow up to an e-mail you will get better results. Somehow the e-mail only method can get lost in the shuffle. Be careful when getting advise from builders of other Zenith designs, as not all applies to the 640. If you are going to build a table, start with a 16 footer, or you will be building 2 tables anyway. You need 16' for the Fuselage.

My own experience with the project has fits and starts as well, work issues, domestic issues, financial issues, all have added delay to my progress. Only recently have I been able to get back to actually building, and have almost completed the stabillator spar. I'm also building my own fuel tanks, as I've decided to go with a double standard tank configuration. I'm building jigs, and tooling to produce 4 standard tanks, buying a nice TIG welder, and so forth. If you decide to go forward and would like to pool resources in the fuel tank department, PM me.

Once the tanks are done, it will be saving up for the wings kit.

Best wishes, and hope you sort out what's best for you.

C. Smith

Howell MI

CH640 SN:078

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

SteveCH640

Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 4
Location: San Diego, CA

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

The "New Mod" I was referring to is the rear seat is moved back a few inches from the original plans. One of the other builders addressed this, but I don't remember which one.

The original position wasn't even a 2+2.

I think it is a really great plane. I have flown the CH200 and extrapulating out, the 640 should be great.

Zenith in Canada seams to have a funny attitude. 

Also, there is a tremendous amount of flying on the West Coast, yet there are no 640 demos here. 

If a company has some problems, I still feel secure if they care. 

Zenith doesn't seem to care about the 640.

dgeese(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

I feel compelled to defend both the CH640 and Zenair on this thread.



As far as support from Zenair, I have had nothing but positive experiences.  Tim Ward seems to be the guy in charge when it comes to questions, parts, etc and is a great guy to talk to.  When I was building my ailerons, I had one come out twisted.  I called to inquire about a replacement skin and since I was ordering my fuse kit anyway, a replacement was included in the crate at NO charge.  They inadvertently sent two left hand longerons and no right hand.  This was quickly solved.  I built my own engine mount since my engine is not a dynofocal mount.  I called to ask detailed questions concerning distance and angles of engine placement and spoke to Chris himself.  I can think of many more situations like these so again, support couldn't have been better.



This airplane is directed towards a niche market, and except for the article in Sport Aviation hasn't been advertised to any extent.  I think the design speaks for itself.  Where else are you going to get a 180HP, 4 place, 145mpg, 1000# useful load plane for under $50k?



It is truly a family traveller.  Granted the back seat isn't as big as say an RV-10 but neither is the cost (not even in the same ballpark).  In my case, the back seat is more than roomy enough for my two kids to travel in comfort.  When the kids are grown and gone, the back seat will be great as baggage area to take extended trips with my wife.



As I'm putting the finishing touches on mine in preparation for the first flight (hopefully this fall), I'm amazed at what a solid, full featured plane this has become.  This won't be my everyday flier, but when the GPS says 1000 miles to go, I wouldn't want to be in anything else.  If anyone is ever in the northern Indiana area, feel free to stop by our community airport and check mine out.



Doug Geese

CH640

95% done, 25% remaining

www.tropria.com

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

Doug, I'm happy that you had a positive experience. Why you feel a need to defend anyone is not necessary. Steve and I have just stated our experiences, nothing more. We both said we liked the aircraft. It's pretty clear that you are one of the early adopters, and perhaps early in the program there was more enthusiasm from the manufcturer. Such is not the case currently. The 640 has been allowed to founder, plain and simple. They didn't even have one to show at Sun-N-Fun, nor was there any promotional literature.

  I have had very mixed results from the company and it's representatives. Some e-mails drift off into oblivion, some get answered. Sometimes I have to make a follow up phone call. But after perserverance on my part I have gotten some answers for critical issues, such as my double fuel mod. Indeed Tim is the best point contact for support, but sometimes things must get shifted around on his desk, as I have had to follow up on a few things.

   I agree with you that the features for price are unbeatable, that is why I chose this model.

  I too will be building my own engine mount, for a Rotamax 180. As Chris is retired from the business, I'm hopeful it won't a problem when I'm crossing that bridge.

  Again, I have great admiration for the design, designer, and quality of materials so far. But for us new builders, it seems the focus of the company is elsewhere.

  It's exciting to hear that you are near completion. Please keep us apprised of your progress, and I would love the oppurtunity to come to see your 640.

  As a veteran builder, what were your "gotcha's" in building the 640, or what advise would you have for those with projects still in infancy?

  Craig in Michigan



dgeese(at)verizon.net wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith640-List message posted  by: 



I feel compelled to defend both the CH640 and Zenair on this thread.



As far as support from Zenair, I have had nothing but positive experiences. Tim Ward seems to be the guy in charge when it comes to questions, parts, etc and is a great guy to talk to. ........ I built my own engine mount since my engine is not a dynofocal mount. I called to ask detailed questions concerning distance and angles of engine placement and spoke to Chris himself. I can think of many more situations like these so again, support couldn't have been better.



This airplane is directed towards a niche market, and except for the article in Sport Aviation hasn't been advertised to any extent. I think the design speaks for itself. Where else are you going to get a 180HP, 4 place, 145mpg, 1000# useful load plane for under $50k?



.....................

As I'm putting the finishing touches on mine in preparation for the first flight (hopefully this  fall), I'm amazed at what a solid, full featured plane this has become. This won't be my everyday flier, but when the GPS says 1000 miles to go, I wouldn't want to be in anything else. If anyone is ever in the northern Indiana area, feel free to stop by our community airport and check mine out.



Doug Geese

CH640

95% done, 25% remaining

www.tropria.com

[b]

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

doug_geese(at)fwmetals.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

I don’t remember any major difficulties in building the airframe, but of course I’ve been working on it since spring of 2002 and I’m sure I forgotten little things in that amount of time.  I do remember the fuel tanks being a little tight in the wing bays and so I used 1/16” cork instead of the kit supplied 1/8”.  I built the entire airframe from Zenair supplied slow build kits and went on my own for the instrument panel and firewall forward (except for cowling).  It seems that lately I have spent a lot of time working between the back of the firewall and the rear of the engine.  Since I’m an “instant gratification” type person, this has been tedious.  Nothing looks different from day to day.  The canopy was riveted in last Sunday so things can start to happen at a quicker pace now.  

   

I guess that I would simply suggest to just stick to the plans while building.  I also follow the 601 list on Matronics and see a lot of armchair engineers over there changing all sorts of stuff.  Good, bad, who knows?  Now that we have our own list as I come up with thoughts about the construction I’ll post them here.  

   

Doug  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-zenith640-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith640-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Smith

 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:23 PM

 To: zenith640-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 640 Builders Check-In  

  

     

Doug, I'm happy that you had a positive experience. Why you feel a need to defend anyone is not necessary. Steve and I have just stated our experiences, nothing more. We both said we liked the aircraft. It's pretty clear that you are one of the early adopters, and perhaps early in the program there was more enthusiasm from the manufcturer. Such is not the case currently. The 640 has been allowed to founder, plain and simple. They didn't even have one to show at Sun-N-Fun, nor was there any promotional literature.  

    

I have had very mixed results from the company and it's representatives. Some e-mails drift off into oblivion, some get answered. Sometimes I have to make a follow up phone call. But after perserverance on my part I have gotten some answers for critical issues, such as my double fuel mod. Indeed Tim is the best point contact for support, but sometimes things must get shifted around on his desk, as I have had to follow up on a few things.  

    

I agree with you that the features for price are unbeatable, that is why I chose this model.  

    

I too will be building my own engine mount, for a Rotamax 180. As Chris is retired from the business, I'm hopeful it won't a problem when I'm crossing that bridge.  

    

Again, I have great admiration for the design, designer, and quality of materials so far. But for us new builders, it seems the focus of the company is elsewhere.  

    

It's exciting to hear that you are near completion. Please keep us apprised of your progress, and I would love the oppurtunity to come to see your 640.  

    

As a veteran builder, what were your "gotcha's" in building the 640, or what advise would you have for those with projects still in infancy?  

  [quote]Craig in Michigan

 [b]

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

I can't really speak to factory support at this time since I finished my plane 3 years ago. It does seem that the 640 has been given little attention by Zenair. Do make sure you have the rear seat plans that were updated. The seat is now 4 inches back from where it is in the prototype. This change was made about 4 years ago, and was included in my plans (#0052). It doesn't interfere with the flap motor, but you do have to design your own way of attaching the steps, as the bracket sent with the kit does not work as shown in the drawings. I attached a few photos of how I did it without changing the brackets. While not elegant, this method has held up fine over 600 hours.

 Just a hint; use about 1 1/2 inch of high quality foam on the rear seats to maximize space and 1 normal sized adult is pretty comfortable in back.

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pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

My SN is 0078, with the baggage shelf in the plans, so I'm guessing that the seat mod is in there too.

  Thanks for the tips. Is there a dimension in a drawing to double check for the seat mod that you can think of, it would be greatly appreciated.



steveadams <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

  [quote]  --> Zenith640-List message posted by: "steveadams" 



I can't really speak to factory support at this time since I finished my plane 3 years ago. It does seem that the 640 has been given little attention by Zenair. Do make sure you have the rear seat plans that were updated. The seat is now 4 inches back from where it is in the prototype. This change was made about 4 years ago, and was included in my plans (#0052).

   

[b]

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

 	  pilot4pay wrote: 	
		  My SN is 0078, with the baggage shelf in the plans, so I'm guessing that the seat mod is in there too.

  Thanks for the tips. Is there a dimension in a drawing to double check for the seat mod that you can think of, it would be greatly appreciated.

[b] 	




I'll have a look at my drawings tonight and check the revision date and some measurements.

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: Re: 640 Builders Check-In

 	  steveadams wrote: 	
		   	  pilot4pay wrote: 	
		  My SN is 0078, with the baggage shelf in the plans, so I'm guessing that the seat mod is in there too.

  Thanks for the tips. Is there a dimension in a drawing to double check for the seat mod that you can think of, it would be greatly appreciated.

[b] 	




I'll have a look at my drawings tonight and check the revision date and some measurements. 	




I looked at the drawings, F-40 and F-41 have most of the rear seat parts, and were revised in 01/04. The distance between the spar and the front rear seat support was moved from 350 mm to 450 mm. 



Steve

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

THANKS! I'll check it out.

Do not archive 

C. Smith

--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: 640 Builders Check-In

Steve, I checked my dwgs. F-40 rev.12, 11/04

F-41, rev.02, 09/05. distance from spar to rear seat is correct.

Thanks again. 



--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

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