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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
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 Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: Wing incidence |
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I have set my wing incidence using my trusty digital level.
I did one first which I walked away from at 2.5deg and when I came back it
was 2.4deg. so I set the other one the same. Does anyone see a problem
with this? I seem to recall an earlier thread in which they key issue
seemed to be getting both wings the same.
Is this correct?
Thanks
Will
Checked by AVG.
18:59
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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: Wing incidence |
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I am faced with the simmilar on my build. If take the wings to the 2.5deg
then the pins are so tight
i cannot remove (if already inserted) or insert if not installed. At 2.0
degrees i can get the pins in and out
JUST at 1.6 it all works nicely. the extra 1degree adds about 800lbs of lift
at 150mph in cruise flight
so I dont think your .1 degree will have much effect. According to my
calculations the 1deg will require the tail of the AC
to be about 100mm lower on landing to generate the same lift for landing
(just above stall speed) On a trike
i cant see this being a major issue, on a mono however????
If anyone has run a lower incidence I too would like to know
craig
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Wing incidence |
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William
yes it is correct, BUT, they need to be the same at two thirds span, ie
roughly where the flap ends. Any difference here or further out will
cause a roll bias.
So, check the second wing at the tip of the flap against the incidence
of the first wing at the same point. Now if there is any difference in
twist of the wings it won't matter so much.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
| Quote: |
I have set my wing incidence using my trusty digital level.
I did one first which I walked away from at 2.5deg and when I came back it
was 2.4deg. so I set the other one the same. Does anyone see a problem
with this? I seem to recall an earlier thread in which they key issue
seemed to be getting both wings the same.
Is this correct?
Thanks
Will
Checked by AVG.
|
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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: Wing incidence |
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thanks
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christoph.both(at)acadiau
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Wing incidence |
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Hi,
There have been comments regarding binding wing pin bushes:
Much of this is caused by a serious flaw in the Europa Builder's Manual: when initially setting the wing spars (or XS wings) to the cockpit module the manual allows you to let them assume any position they like. In other words, the wings might hang around at 5 or more degrees wing incidence. This uncontrolled condition causes the wing mounting pin to increasingly deviate from the wing bush bore incidence in the back of the cockpit module. So, if you just glue in the seat back bush without taking care of approximating as closely as possible the 2.5 degree later wing incidence the following will happen for sure:
Upon finally setting the wing incidence the pins will now be a few degrees off level with the drilled hole level of the seat back bush, thus binding like crazy.
Initially I could not believe how stupid I was using a REAMER to ream through the two wing mount bushes plus the seat back bush. YEAH, I could now easily remove the wing pins but the entire set up was now compromised beyond any airworthiness considerations. All this was caused because no hint was given to incorporate as closely as possible and already at the early building stages, the 2.5 degree wing incidence so the seat back bush would not bind.
I fully came to terms with this much later while upgrading to 1/2 diameter bushes. While replacing all bushes in the wings I made sure the seat back bush had the right angle. This almost solved the problem. However, I did have some persistent serious binding on one side. In the end I had to reposition one of the new wing bushes in situ, that is, floxing it in while the wings were mounted. Don't ask me how I managed this with the wing fillets already on and both wings mounted. I had to create a special sequence of steps and some innovative tools to get this resolved...
The wings are now fully up to mounting standards and go effortlessly in and out of the fuselage with the wing mount pins sliding in and out smoothly. What a joy!. Oh, by the way, you need to make a well positioned wing mounting bracket (see picts) to achieve this as well. I can now mount my classic wings alone, without extra tools and special assemblies. I used pieces cut from 1/4 inch UHMW plastic sheet which is incredibly tough but somehow flexible and slippery when the wing spars glide on it, without any chance of scratching or abrasion. Incredible stuff and much better than the phenolic sheets!
I hope EUROPA updates the builder's manual to save us many frustrating hours. It's a great kit, though, I must say.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Wing incidence |
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Chris thanks for your input, just out of curiosity (and to make my life
easier)
how did u remove the binding bush on your second set to re-bond it. I was
considering
a half inch drill or bolt into the seat back then heating it to soften the
redux, is this
how you removed it. I thought the redux doesnt soften till about 400
degrees, which i have concerns
about damaging the surrounding area with that much heat
--
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christoph.both(at)acadiau
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Wing incidence |
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Hi,
What you don't want, especially if you have not yet set up the wing lift pins and sockets already, is to disturb the positioning of the seat back bush as even a millimeter move up and down has a great effect on the positioning of the wing dihedral to the fuselage. Drilling out opens up this possibility so I would first consider cautious heat removal.
The trick is to heat the bush quickly enough so the surropunding epoxy matrix is not heated up beyond a point where the cured epoxy heat desintegrates, which goes pretty quickly. Epoxy glass matrix is a faily good temperature insulator so you can work this to your advantage by heating up quickly and then remove the bush immediately as the epoxy softens. You will discover that in any case the epoxy in the seat back bore will be destroyed for sure. It turns into a brown powder incapable for any further structural design loads. So, after removal of the bush, you must carefully remove all remaining epoxy in the seat back hole without taking material from the seat back, though, and then start with a fresh batch of epoxy glueing it back. I did use the 1/2 inch bolt to line it all up making sure there was equal movement (play) both up and down.
I have done several sets of bush removals incuding the 3/8 to 1/2 inch concersion (which needs to be drilled) and the most useful tool I discovered was a tapered reamer slightly larger that the inner bore of the bush which after softening of the bush I quickly inserted and it clawed it well and pulled it out easy. NOTE: This tool WILL destroy the inner smoothness of the bush but in consideration of old burned up epoxy clinging onto the textured outer bush surface which turns out impossible to remove anyways I always replaced every bush anyways allowing a much better adhesion to the new epoxy.
There are surprising high bending loads going into the seat back bushed once the wings flex under load. This is caused because of the slight differential of mounting locations between wing pin bushes outboard and seat back bushes more inside the fuselage, with both wing pins taking the full load of the entire bending forces of the wings. EUROPA discovered this rather complex 3-D wing spar twisting tendency problem about 10 years after delivery of the first kit and we all now need the spar jackets to be added to our wings... In any case, you want the seat back bushes refitting to be as best performed as possible.
There are some situations like popping off the metal spar cap inserts which I had to do twice where heat is also a workable solution as I knew the underlying glue bed of REDUX was thick enough to not transfer the heat too quickly to the set back epoxy matrix - but I had to rehearse the sequence before and time it very carefully to pop the cap off as soon as possible with a tap of a chisel to prevent the underlying epoxy matrix heating up beyond temperature limits.
Christoph Both
#223 Wolfville, Nova Scotia Canada
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of craig bastin
Sent: Sat 8/2/2008 9:45 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Wing incidence
Chris thanks for your input, just out of curiosity (and to make my life
easier)
how did u remove the binding bush on your second set to re-bond it. I was
considering
a half inch drill or bolt into the seat back then heating it to soften the
redux, is this
how you removed it. I thought the redux doesnt soften till about 400
degrees, which i have concerns
about damaging the surrounding area with that much heat
--
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