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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Here's a couple of shots of this weekend's fun and relaxation in the  

aviation hobby. : )



These guys were johnny-on-the-spot to help me get her towed back to  

civilization...the shade of that big ol' tree in the b'ground near  

the farm...and took me into town so I could get a battery charger for  

my cellphone, and thus make arrangements for the tow home.

\

Here's the tale of the engine stoppage...as I suspected, the timing  

gear on the crank destroyed itself (actually I didn't guess the crank  

gear specifically, rather one or the other), but the end result is  

the same. I've got one head off and slight contact between the valve  

and piston shows, but I don't think new parts on that one cylinder is  

required, but I've got 3 more to look at tomorrow. In any case, I'll  

probably do a complete o'haul as long as I have it this far down.

The crank gear looks like some hockey players I've come up  

against...about 9 teeth missing. : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying...oops...holding short at 561.8 hrs

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Lynn 

 

I am going to run these photos past the local Jab technician here in Adelaide as he is a wealth of info on the Jab engines and is in fact in charge of mtce training here in Aus. 

 

I'll  let you  know what he says. 

 

(He has converted his 2200 to Fuel injection and develops about another 20Hp! 

 

regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

At 05:38 PM 8/4/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Here's a couple of shots of this weekend's fun and relaxation in the

aviation hobby. : )


	


I'm sorry to say that, from an engineering perspective, that's a very 

sorry looking gear. I'm also wondering what the heck the little flat 

gear is for. I sure hope they redesigned this area at some point. 

(The picture in the field looks great, however!)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Yup... That would just about stop the engine...  I wouldn't have thought

there would be enough load there to do that!  Do you think there may have

been a defect in the gear?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Guy-

The little flat gear is the drive gear for the distributors. There  

are two more similar gears, one on each end of the dist shafts. Since  

very little driving force is required for the dist shafts to turn, a  

thin gear is all that is required. Explanation aside, they ARE very  

wimpy-looking though, eh?The strange thing about this crank gear is  

that it is hat-shaped, and sits over the end of the crankshaft,  

positioned by the dowels, and held in place when the flywheel is  

bolted on top of it...top as seen in the picture. The scored line  

about 1/4" down from the face of that gear is the line made from the  

rear oil seal riding on it....that's right, the seal rides on this  

gear, not on the crankshaft itself. The engine is a marvel of  

compactness and design, but that's not to say that it's without its  

flaws, and it seems like I'm the poster child for finding some.

In hindsight, when I noticed some oil seepage at the rear seal area,  

I should have looked further. But oil seepage doesn't immediately  

tell me (DID'NT tell me, but it WILL now!) to pull the engine and  

have a better look. Maybe being a gearhead for years and years  

doesn't translate directly over to aviation.

I took a better look at the crank timing gear, and there are signs  

that it was cracked for some time...how long I couldn't say, but it  

just didn't happen all in one shot.

I'm building an engine stand this morning, and will get the rest of  

the engine dismantled later today.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying...oops...holding short at 561.8 hrs

On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:07 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 05:38 PM 8/4/2008, you wrote:

> Here's a couple of shots of this weekend's fun and relaxation in the

> aviation hobby. : )

 I'm sorry to say that, from an engineering perspective, that's a  

 very sorry looking gear. I'm also wondering what the heck the  

 little flat gear is for. I sure hope they redesigned this area at  

 some point. (The picture in the field looks great, however!)

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

 Do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Patrick.Best(at)telus.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Hi Lynn;



I can't beleive those pictures.. So glad that you're ok.  Thanks for sharing your experience. 

 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Thanks, Gary....hmmmmm, 20 more horses? I wonder of the Jab can take  

it? I'd sure appreciate any info I can get regarding the breakage.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying...oops...holding short at 561.8 hrs

do not archive





On Aug 4, 2008, at 11:34 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Lynn



 I am going to run these photos past the local Jab technician here  

 in Adelaide as he is a wealth of info on the Jab engines and is in  

 fact in charge of mtce training here in Aus.



 I'll  let you  know what he says.



 (He has converted his 2200 to Fuel injection and develops about  

 another 20Hp!



 regards



 Gary



 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _- 

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

I'm pretty sure there was....the crack shows signs of age, just not  

an immediate fracture, the way I see it.

Jabiru might want to take a look at it.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying...oops...holding short at 561.8 hrs



On Aug 5, 2008, at 9:03 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Yup... That would just about stop the engine...  I wouldn't have  

 thought

 there would be enough load there to do that!  Do you think there  

 may have

 been a defect in the gear?



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

My dear Lynn,

First I thought to write to you directly but since we are a nice and friendly family on this list ... here it goes.



First let me say that I admire the way you take your engine failure in a light and positive way. (I only wish I could take the consequences of my heart failure the same way).



We have seen on the Jabiru list people who experienced problems with their engine and went in a destructive way head-on against the company and their agents. The truth is - and as someone else pointed out here - any engine can suffer failure; Murphy made sure of that - may his name be cursed in one hundred generations! 



Because it looks like I will never get back a pilot license, I will probably be a right-seater with my son. But because I value his life more than my own, I need now to make sure that the Jabiru is something we can still fly without unreasonable fear.



My question then is: Am I right to say that you have the hydraulic lifters Jabiru? Do you think that your engine failure can have something to do with that or am I as much in danger to see such a failure with my old mechanical lifters?



You see, the Norwegian country is not as flat as Michigan and the cornfields - if any - are the size of postal stamps (well, at least - seen from above! 



In Germany, without medical, I could fly this:

http://silentfamily.de/index.php?id=12



But Norway doesn't have the same rule. The reason it is accepted in Germany is that the empty weight of that funny motor-glider is only 108 kg.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... but grounded.

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Cheer up, Michel...while in the post office yesterday, I overheard a  

gentleman saying that he had 3 heart attacks. Of course, I didn't see  

flight helmet and goggles, but he was walking. : )

Fretting about it will only make it seem worse, and as I found out  

after my by-pass surgery, you now have a new lease on life, so enjoy it.



Nope, I've got solid lifters...mine was the 5th engine from the last  

of the solid lifter engines. (Maybe they were using up all the bad  

parts in an effort to clean out the bins when they made mine)  The  

only recent clue that I had was a slight seepage from the rear main  

seal. I couldn't really tell where it was coming from in the weeks  

prior to the failure, but I knew that there was some oil showing up  

on the lower cowl. I attributed it to a combination of seepages from  

various areas as the engine got more and more hours on it, and  

because it was not a lot of oil, just an oil film really, I never  

went looking for one big major problem. Then at Oshkosh when I saw  

the oil seepage...more than a film of oil this time....coming from  

the rear main seal area, I knew I had to do something about it. Well,  

it only gave me about 5 hours notice...barely enough time to get back  

from Oshkosh. Someone mentioned that if the broken part was cracked  

in the area where the seal rides, that could explain the leak leading  

up to the part failure.



So if anything is to be learned from this, it is to keep an eye on  

that rear main seal area. Because of the nature of the design of the  

engine, a leak here is a warning. Any other seal seepage is just an  

annoyance, and can be dealt with in time, but I'd treat this area  

with respect and look into a leakage here sooner rather than later.



For anyone thinking about using a Jabiru engine, I seem to be the  

only one having these problems, so maybe I got a "Friday afternoon/ 

Monday morning" engine. The majority of them out there are performing  

without problems, both in experimentals and in the Jabiru aircraft.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 6, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   My dear Lynn,

 First I thought to write to you directly but since we are a nice  

 and friendly family on this list ... here it goes.



 First let me say that I admire the way you take your engine failure  

 in a light and positive way. (I only wish I could take the  

 consequences of my heart failure the same way).



 We have seen on the Jabiru list people who experienced problems  

 with their engine and went in a destructive way head-on against the  

 company and their agents. The truth is - and as someone else  

 pointed out here - any engine can suffer failure; Murphy made sure  

 of that - may his name be cursed in one hundred generations! 



 Because it looks like I will never get back a pilot license, I will  

 probably be a right-seater with my son. But because I value his  

 life more than my own, I need now to make sure that the Jabiru is  

 something we can still fly without unreasonable fear.



 My question then is: Am I right to say that you have the hydraulic  

 lifters Jabiru? Do you think that your engine failure can have  

 something to do with that or am I as much in danger to see such a  

 failure with my old mechanical lifters?



 You see, the Norwegian country is not as flat as Michigan and the  

 cornfields - if any - are the size of postal stamps (well, at least  

 - seen from above! 



 In Germany, without medical, I could fly this:

 http://silentfamily.de/index.php?id=12



 But Norway doesn't have the same rule. The reason it is accepted in  

 Germany is that the empty weight of that funny motor-glider is only  

 108 kg.



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... but grounded.

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">



 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>



 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Michel, 

 

As you know I am now flying in Jabiru country and a good friend of mine is the Jabiru Support man for S.Australia. 

 

I recently replaced my Jab2200 S/No.340 for a new engine - nothing wrong with mine but I found that there had been many changes to the 2200A during it's evolution. ie) larger fine finned heads, larger carby and induction system with more economical fuel burn, slightly increased HP etc/ And finally hydraulic lifters. 

 

When I went to place the order for the engine my Jab Tech. friend told me that I would be better off buying a Zero timed re-build of the solid lifter engine rather than the new hydraulic as the general consensus was that the Solid Lifter engine was more reliable and better performing. I managed to speak to the factory engineer and he also confirmed that in his opinion the solid lifter was a better engine. (Price diff was only $1500 (at) $11,500 vs $13,000 

 

On that basis I ordered the solid lifter engine 

 

The Hydraulic lifter engine evidently has problems with cam lagg and this results in inconsistent performance - this presents no failure issue just a performance variation on some installations. 

 

The only reason they went to hydraulic lifters was to do away with the valve (tappet) adjustment required with the solid lifter engine. 

 

I certainly wouldn't be concerned at this stage as I see 4 x trainers flying from my field every day of the week with Jab2200A power plants and they get a hell of a thrashing - all have made recommended TBO's and the operators love them. The Sportstar's with the 912S also operated at Aldinga Airfield have unfortunately been prone to gearbox failures and have a somewhat tarnished reputation. In Canada the 912 was the engine of choice and service history is excellent so it's a pretty subjective argument. 

 

I have sent Foto of Lynns modified timing gear to my friend at the Jabiru factory and will update the list on the response I get from him 

 

Regards 

 

Gary 

 

 



 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

06/08/2008 06:56 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 RE: Landing and engine pictures 

     

 

 

 

My dear Lynn,

 First I thought to write to you directly but since we are a nice and friendly family on this list ... here it goes.

 

 First let me say that I admire the way you take your engine failure in a light and positive way. (I only wish I could take the consequences of my heart failure the same way).

 

 We have seen on the Jabiru list people who experienced problems with their engine and went in a destructive way head-on against the company and their agents. The truth is - and as someone else pointed out here - any engine can suffer failure; Murphy made sure of that - may his name be cursed in one hundred generations! 

 

 Because it looks like I will never get back a pilot license, I will probably be a right-seater with my son. But because I value his life more than my own, I need now to make sure that the Jabiru is something we can still fly without unreasonable fear.

 

 My question then is: Am I right to say that you have the hydraulic lifters Jabiru? Do you think that your engine failure can have something to do with that or am I as much in danger to see such a failure with my old mechanical lifters?

 

 You see, the Norwegian country is not as flat as Michigan and the cornfields - if any - are the size of postal stamps (well, at least - seen from above! 

 

 In Germany, without medical, I could fly this:

 http://silentfamily.de/index.php?id=12

 

 But Norway doesn't have the same rule. The reason it is accepted in Germany is that the empty weight of that funny motor-glider is only 108 kg.

 

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... but grounded.

 

 

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 </b></font></pre></body></html> 

 [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Lynn 

 

The head engine builder (Don) at Jabiru just called me and we ran thru your timing gear failure. 

 

Jabiru Australia have one (1) reported Crankshaft Timing gear failure and this happened three years ago at Innisfil (S.Australia) on a Jab2200 powered lightwing. 

 

The gear was inspected at Jabiru and heat treat and mfg were all within spec. There were no signs of contamination between the gears and the final consensus was that the operator may have been experiencing pre-ignition or was running with a loose flywheel which could have over-stressed the gear. 

 

The gear only runs the camshaft at a 2:1 ratio and is very lightly loaded so with over 1500 units in operation and only one recorded failure that could not be attributed to component overstress no service directive was issued. 

 

They have released directives to ensure all fly-wheel bolts are correctly torqued. 

 

Sorry I couldn't get you a more definitive answer but it appears that this might have been a 1 off (or 2 - off) 

 

best regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Kitfox Classic 4 2200A

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... )



Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary, the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list, I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft, but install it in something else, we are entering the world of experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are, actually, test pilots.



I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did and illustrated here:

http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel



Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of, if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the oil leaks from.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the  

Jabiru lists, Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something  

to say, (wink, wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they  

have been informed of the incident.



Michel, I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine  

had the dowels already in place, the existing bolts were tight, and  

the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing, since I'm not where  

my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy,  

that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site, eh?



My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you  

recall, the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal  

rides. It's a rather strange design, unlike any I've seen in all the  

engines I've dealt with over the years, but then we're in the  

aviation world now, where lightness, compactness, and engineering  

done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the  

flywheel, Michel, from below, to see the area.



I could kick my ass, in hindsight, for not getting right after that  

leak after I first saw it. Like I said before, a seeping seal is not  

the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After  

all, it's only "seeping", not pouring out, threatening a fire, etc.  

But looking back on it, that's what I should have done. Actually, the  

repair could have been done with the engine still in the  

plane...barely, in my case.  The rear cover is all that must be  

pulled, and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off,  

the timing gear cover can be removed, and the timing gears are then  

exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have  

revealed the crack in the timing gear, which in my case could  

probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken  

pieces, this has been a faulty gear for some time.



My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to  

wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already  

have the dowels in your engine?



Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 7, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have  

 you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... )



 Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre- 

 flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary,  

 the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be  

 subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list,  

 I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when  

 we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,  

 but install it in something else, we are entering the world of  

 experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are,  

 actually, test pilots.



 I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The  

 question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's  

 failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to  

 comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did  

 and illustrated here:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel



 Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I  

 understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of,  

 if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the  

 oil leaks from.



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">



 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>



 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

I, for one, appreciate the discussion. Re-engining may be in the offing for me and the Jab 2200 was/is on my short list of possibilities. Please continue.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box

  



--- On Thu, 8/7/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 10:14 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>



I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the  

Jabiru lists, Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something  

to say, (wink, wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they  

have been informed of the incident.



Michel, I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine  

had the dowels already in place, the existing bolts were tight, and  

the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing, since I'm not where  

my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy,  

that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site, eh?



My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you  

recall, the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal  

rides. It's a rather strange design, unlike any I've seen in all the  

engines I've dealt with over the years, but then we're in the  

aviation world now, where lightness, compactness, and engineering  

done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the  

flywheel, Michel, from below, to see the area.



I could kick my ass, in hindsight, for not getting right after that  

leak after I first saw it. Like I said before, a seeping seal is not  

the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After  

all, it's only "seeping", not pouring out, threatening a fire,

etc.  

But looking back on it, that's what I should have done. Actually, the  

repair could have been done with the engine still in the  

plane...barely, in my case.  The rear cover is all that must be  

pulled, and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off,  

the timing gear cover can be removed, and the timing gears are then  

exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have  

revealed the crack in the timing gear, which in my case could  

probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken  

pieces, this has been a faulty gear for some time.



My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to  

wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already  

have the dowels in your engine?



Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 7, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have  

 you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... )



 Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre- 

 flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary,  

 the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be  

 subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list,  

 I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when  

 we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,  

 but install it in something else, we are entering the world of  

 experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are,  

 actually, test pilots.



 I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The  

 question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's  

 failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to  

 comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did  

 and illustrated here:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel



 Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I  

 understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of,  

 if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the  

 oil leaks from.



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

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face="courier new,courier">
	


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 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>



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         [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Thanks for checking into it, Gary.



I did the service bulletin at the time it was issued, and I changed  

all the bolts, the originals of which were already at the then- 

current torque specs, so no "loose flywheel" at that time. No loose  

flywheel at this time either, and no fretting was seen when I took it  

off this time. My engine (#2062) had the three dowels already fitted.



Unless they'd like to see my broken gear, and give me some new parts  

(yeah, right!), I guess I'l just buy new parts and get back to flying.



Lynn





On Aug 6, 2008, at 9:19 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Lynn



 The head engine builder (Don) at Jabiru just called me and we ran  

 thru your timing gear failure.



 Jabiru Australia have one (1) reported Crankshaft Timing gear  

 failure and this happened three years ago at Innisfil (S.Australia)  

 on a Jab2200 powered lightwing.



 The gear was inspected at Jabiru and heat treat and mfg were all  

 within spec. There were no signs of contamination between the gears  

 and the final consensus was that the operator may have been  

 experiencing pre-ignition or was running with a loose flywheel  

 which could have over-stressed the gear.



 The gear only runs the camshaft at a 2:1 ratio and is very lightly  

 loaded so with over 1500 units in operation and only one recorded  

 failure that could not be attributed to component overstress no  

 service directive was issued.



 They have released directives to ensure all fly-wheel bolts are  

 correctly torqued.



 Sorry I couldn't get you a more definitive answer but it appears  

 that this might have been a 1 off (or 2 - off)



 best regards



 Gary



 Gary Algate

 Kitfox Classic 4 2200A

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _- 

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave.wahlquist(at)ics.uwe
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

I have been reading posts on this with great interest. Lynn, I had a

good look at your plane at Oshkosh. It looked great. Who would have

known that it was a few hours away from a situation like you

experienced?

 On your seal leaking issue I keep thinking of my experiences in the

auto, snow machine and boat world. In my head I keep coming back to the

fact that in low hour machines or ones that have seals that are only a

few years old a leak was often a sign of a bad bearing or bent shaft or

an out of balance component. Could the cause of your failure be a

bearing on either end of the shaft going bad? Maybe a flywheel balance

weight came loose. In that geared arrangement it wouldn't take too much

slop to really hammer those gears on each other until something lets go.

Just a thought and good luck.



Dave Wahlquist

Marshall WI

Kitfox Model III

Rotax 582

N844KF

--

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Just thought I would open my mouth on this (and probably regret it later LOL)  I have a Jabiru in my Avid Mk IV

 and while it seems to run fine C it does not have the performance I expected from it.  It is faster than the 582 it

 replaced C but does not climb as well.  Maybe I don't have it set up right prop wise C but at about $500 each for a 

 Tennasee prop C how much experimenting can you do.  On the Kitfox 4 I'm building C I picked up a used 912 Rotax

 engine and have high hopes for it.  At least with it I can put on a large ground adjustable prop and set it where I 

 want it.  I think the 60" to 64" wood prop you have to use on the Jabiru is a big disadvantage.  The Jabiru probably 

 weighs 20 lbs less installed than the 912 and that might be a factor on the Kitfox 2 with the lower gross weight.

 I've also read a lot of the posts on the Rotax matronics list as well as most of them on the Jabiru sites.  There are a 

 lot more Rotaxes out there than the Jabirus C but I think there are more posts of major problems on the Jab sites than 

 the Rotax ones.  Sorry if I offended anyone C I didn't mean to.  Just putting into words what I've come to belive about

 these engines.  Granted C I have yet to fly a 912 Rotax.  Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building C Avid MK IV flying  MN

   

 Date: Thu C 7 Aug 2008 07:56:11 -0700

From: msm_9949(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

     I C for one C appreciate the discussion. Re-engining may be in the offing for me and the Jab 2200 was/is on my short list of possibilities. Please continue.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box

  



--- On Thu C 8/7/08 C Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday C August 7 C 2008 C 10:14 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>



I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the  

Jabiru lists C Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something  

to say C (wink C wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they  

have been informed of the incident.



Michel C I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine  

had the dowels already in place C the existing bolts were tight C and  

the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing C since I'm not where  

my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy C  

that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site C eh?



My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you  

recall C the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal  

rides. It's a rather strange design C unlike any I've seen in all the  

engines I've dealt with over the years C but then we're in the  

aviation world now C where lightness C compactness C and engineering  

done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the  

flywheel C Michel C from below C to see the area.



I could kick my ass C in hindsight C for not getting right after that  

leak after I first saw it. Like I said before C a seeping seal is not  

the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After  

all C it's only "seeping" C not pouring out C threatening a fire C

etc.  

But looking back on it C that's what I should have done. Actually C the  

repair could have been done with the engine still in the  

plane...barely C in my case.  The rear cover is all that must be  

pulled C and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off C  

the timing gear cover can be removed C and the timing gears are then  

exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have  

revealed the crack in the timing gear C which in my case could  

probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken  

pieces C this has been a faulty gear for some time.



My serial number is 2062 C Michel C just 5 engines before they went to  

wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already  

have the dowels in your engine?



Guy C if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature C holler.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded C but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 7 C 2008 C at 7:15 AM C Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have  

 you guys C here on the Kitfox one? ... )



 Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre- 

 flight routine C Lynn C that's a good idea. I agree with you C Gary C  

 the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be  

 subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list C  

 I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when  

 we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft C  

 but install it in something else C we are entering the world of  

 experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are C  

 actually C test pilots.



 I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The  

 question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's  

 failure is interesting. As you remember C I was one of the first to  

 comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them C which I did  

 and illustrated here:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel



 Now C Lynn C where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I  

 understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather C in front of C  

 if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the  

 oil leaks from.



 Cheers C

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

 <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000"

face="courier new Ccourier">
	


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 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>



 </b></font></pre>


	






	
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



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Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer Games Trivia Contest Find out how.  [quote][b]

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Lynn sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.


	


Discussions about Avid/Kitfox powerplants of general interest are 

spot-on, Lynn.  Carry on.



Mike G.

Kitfox List Administrator

Phoenix, AZ

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Landing and engine pictures

Spot-on, you say old chap? Well, bully then, the next pint's on me!



p.s. I may not be so damn jolly if I don't hear from the J people  

pretty soon. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 7, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>



 Lynn sez:



> Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.



 Discussions about Avid/Kitfox powerplants of general interest are  

 spot-on, Lynn.  Carry on.



 Mike G.

 Kitfox List Administrator

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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