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91 octane, time to be heard!

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

If you are happy with just 100LL stop here. You won't like where this is going. 



This effects us all even in other countries because one tends to follow the other at some point. 

If you are tired of someone saying we can't have 91 octane, read on. It's time to pick a side and take 5 minutes to email. Our lives as people are good because someone didn't just say ok. Some took the time to make change and made it better for all of us. If we choose to sit on the sideline and just go along then we deserve what we get. I would implore all to take a minute and email these two people and any other fuel administrator in other companies. I will post on as many aviation websites as possible and I would you all to pick a side and stand up to be heard and maybe, just maybe we might effect change. I for one don't want to roll over. You are about to read a bulletin about the use of Chevron ground fuel verses aviation fuel. Then I have a response. 



Don't sit back and pick my memo apart, use that time to write your own and be heard. Post this on all your aviation websites. Let them hear a nation wide voice. 



Send your emails to: 



LIMG(at)chevron.com 

kayalbitz(at)chevron.com 



or any other fuel company administrator.

2008-04 2008-04 Bulletin 2008-04 Chevron Position Autogas for Aviation Use.pdf

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Chevron's bulletin

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Ryan Memo.doc

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My respose

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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Roger sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Don't sit back and pick my memo apart, use that time to write your 

own and be heard. Post this on all your aviation websites. Let them 

hear a nation wide voice.


	


I appreciate your concern over fuel issues but I think you need to 

keep in mind Chevron's motivations.  I'm certain that their position 

on auto fuel use in aircraft is largely driven by their attorney's 

concerns over liability.  They have now provided notice that they do 

not approve of the use of their ground fuels in aircraft so they can 

say as much in court if they are ever sued following an accident.



So, they've covered their backside.  Go back to using whatever fuel 

you have determined is appropriate for your application.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Hi Roger !!!!



I have been wondering where you were.  I have missed your posts, they always have such good information.  One thing I noticed the other day, the Purolator Pure one oil filters are now a Gold color with a rough finish, did they change the filter any ???   



Mike

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Hi Mike,



To be truthful I don't know for sure. Maybe the person at the parts store might shed a little light on the subject, maybe not. Sorry I'm just not sure without a little research.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Mike:



To an extent I have no doubt whatsoever that you are spot on as to Chevron's

reason to making the statement.  I also think that 99% of the auto fuel out

there is quite safe to use... I use it myself...but I think it would be

better if we could get a nice straight unleaded (small aircraft) fuel.  If

not that at least a fuel that has been carefully handled and is ethanol

free.



I have seen some STCs that allow aircraft to fly on Ethanol contaminated

fuels.  To a large part these STC's are held by a chemist who has been

testing the fuels.  For my money I'd only knowingly put that stuff through a

rather expensive Lycoming or Continental engine if I was a test pilot....

with my personal chute and quick release doors.



In the meantime especially if you can get non-eth contaminated fuel what's

there is for the most part usable just remember to try to avoid over flying

heavily populated areas at low altitudes...  Doing that will keep you in the

good books of the FAA too! 



Has any one out there used gas that has had the eth "washed" out of it?  The

process is simple I'm just wondering if anyone has used it in a plane yet.

We can't get the stuff (E-anything) here or I would have tried it.



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lkc(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

I have been told that here in Alaska Costco gas doesn't have ethanol in it.  An 83yr old pilot friend of mine uses the Costco gas in his beach and his experimental and showed me how to test for ethanol.  Maybe some of you out there can confirm his testing.  He puts water in the bottom forth of a clear soda bottle and marks the exact height of the water level.  Then he fills the rest of the bottle with auto gas.  He shakes it up good and lets it settle.  He says the  ethanol will separate out of the fuel and mix with the water.  If the water level stays the same there should be no ethanol in the fuel.  Does anyone know if this is right?  Also when using auto gas, should I use high test or regular.  I tried it 2 weeks ago with regular and my engine seemed to run a bit hotter and rougher but it could be my imagination.  The fuel savings would be huge but I still worry since my tanks aren't sloshed. Layne  Anchorage, AK  Subaru EA81      



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larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Layne,

  Do you have a stock Soob or a modified  version?    Larry  4-1200 EA 81

 [quote]   ---

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Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

lkc(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

My Soob is a stock NSI EA81 conversion.  



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larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular  87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that  makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever.  Correct me if I  am wrong folks. Been there before.   Larry

 [quote]   ---

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Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Hi Lkc,



Most engines that have an 7.5 to 8.5 compression usually have no problem running on 87 octane fuel, like some of the Lyc, Cont and the Rotax 912 80 hp.. The engine like the Rotax 912ULS 100 hp has a compression of 10.5:1. This requires 91 octane. Engines have been running on ground based fuel since the Wright Brother's. Your engine Mfg. can tell you if it is ok to run 91 octane and now days it is usually published in your operators handbook. Your friend is right on with his concept for looking for alcohol with the water test. You can over do the water and fuel mix and you can read online on numerous websites on the exact method. Aircraft Spruce has a couple of alcohol test available. If your temps climb, but not too high it's a minor issue. If you have any pinging or detonation then you need run run 91 octane. If you only require 87 you can't go wrong if you up the octane to 91. The octane increase just helps control the burn and stops any excess heat from causing possible detonation. Detonation is really bad.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Hi Noel,



I think that's all anyone wants is some fuel we can use with no alcohol. Many people like the unleaded 91 because it's cheaper and less damaging to their engine than the leaded stuff.

_________________
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Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel.  Generally speaking the line for high octane requirement is with a compression ratio of somewhere around 11:1.  

   

I’ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject.  Fact is no one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost effective as oil.  No one has commented either way on the poisonous, ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including ethanol and bio diesel, are burned.  One guy, a farmer I think or the holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to fuel diesel tractors..  Now I wonder how many miles they get to the injection pump.  There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates the pumps???  

   

Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so I’m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, on the ground, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol has no place in the air except in business class.  

   

As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will see it except by some accident.  As I said the stuff is corrosive and no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with the possibility of eating the ship out from under them.  Of course they could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to make the ethanol on site.  What do you figure the chances of that are??  Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time...  in above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly do to those facilities... Hmmm  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley

 Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

     

If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever.  Correct me if I am wrong folks. Been there before.   Larry  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: lkc(at)juno.com (lkc(at)juno.com)   

    

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 3:25 PM  

    

Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

    

   

  

My Soob is a stock NSI EA81 conversion. 

 

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

I did read somewhere about the development of an unleaded octane 92 aviation

fuel.  It was called 92UL.  Handled like all other aviation fuels without

the remixing of recipe auto gas has for seasonal changes.  Sounds like the

right stuff.  Most engines in service right now won't require any

modifications with the possible exception of hardening valves and seats and

we won't be pumping lead into the atmosphere.  With the ridiculous cost of

producing ethanol taken out of the equation and the lack of road taxes the

92-UL gas should be a little less than MOGAS.



Noel  



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Espuny:  

   

As most planes this far north are not completely modified for the use of ethanol....  Because we have no way of knowing the state of the hydration of the ethanol in our fuel when we get it... because there is no standardization of auto fuel, even without ethanol, I can’t in good conscience use or advise anyone to use it in their plane.  

   

I expect you people are in a slightly different situation than we are in that you are using excess sugar cane to make the ethanol...  In the North food producing fields are being switched over to ethanol every day this is resulting in huge increases in the cost of most if not all meats and produce.  Don’t even think of getting any cascades hops to flavour you next brew of beer!  

   

Curiosity makes me ask if the flight authority for the planes flying on ethanol extends to Canada and the USA, assuming you had sufficiently large tanks or do you have to use 100LL in those countries?  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny

 Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:53 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

   

Hi, Noel.  

 In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture.  

Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd.  

You're right when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for gas.  

But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of alchool, not only the engine.  

I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for this particular use.  

But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels will end someday.  

I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they are for the oil derivates today.  

And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and contamination limits.   

I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol.  

As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer.  

And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences.  

I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered and equiped.  

   

Espuny  

   

paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!!  

   

do not archive  

   

       

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys

 Enviada em: domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45

 Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

   

Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel.  Generally speaking the line for high octane requirement is with a compression ratio of somewhere around 11:1.  

   

I’ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject.  Fact is no one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost effective as oil.  No one has commented either way on the poisonous, ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including ethanol and bio diesel, are burned.  One guy, a farmer I think or the holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to fuel diesel tractors..  Now I wonder how many miles they get to the injection pump.  There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates the pumps???  

   

Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so I’m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, on the ground, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol has no place in the air except in business class.  

   

As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will see it except by some accident.  As I said the stuff is corrosive and no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with the possibility of eating the ship out from under them.  Of course they could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to make the ethanol on site.  What do you figure the chances of that are??  Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time...  in above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly do to those facilities... Hmmm  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley

 Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

     

If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever.  Correct me if I am wrong folks. Been there before.   Larry  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: lkc(at)juno.com (lkc(at)juno.com)   

    

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 3:25 PM  

    

Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

    

   

  

My Soob is a stock NSI EA81 conversion. 

 

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: 91 octane, time to be heard!

Thanks for the in depth response.    

   

The wheels of the FAA and TC (further north) turn very slowly.  Just look at the 1920’s technology being used to produce spark for the planes.    

   

As you have said your ethanol production is 100 % in excess of what is required for other uses.  The same is  not true this far North.  

   

One other point is you obviously have a pretty good turnover of ethanol inventory so the chances of having seriously hydrated fuel are pretty low.  You also don’t have to worry too much about phase separation of water and alcohol in flight.  The phase separation is temperature dependent as well as saturation dependent.  That can make using ethanol in gas here much more dicey.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny

 Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:14 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

   

Hi, Noel,  

   

In fact, 100% of our ethanol is obtained from fermentation of sugar cane.   

We have so much sugar cane fields that we can produce all sugar and ethanol we need in local market and  there's also a large excess that's exported. The production is being increased day by day and, as we have a lot of unused land to be explored, this can be expanded many times and does not compete with food production.  

More than 80% new cars sold here are for gas/ethanol in any percent of each (that's what the local industry, GM, Ford, Fiat, Honda, VW, Peugeot, Renault, Nissan... call "flex"). You buy a car and anytime you go to the station you may choose among regular, premium or ethanol, no matter what you still have inside the tank and with no need to do anything in the car, and you'll feel always the same performance. We're experienced in the uses of ethanol, so there are cars, tractors, and many oyher machines explosion-engine powereds fueled with alchool, although all the large trucks use diesel that's been progressively changed to biodiesel, this one made from soy bean that may increase the food prices. But we're learning to explore mamona to produce biodiesel, and it's poisonous, so it will not compete, but open business opportunities and grow employment in the fields. We're also beginning the production of plastic sinthesized from sugar cane alchool. Oil will finish someday...land, not.  

There are solid parameters and very restrictive laws concerning fuels composition, and we can trust Petrobras, Shell, Texaco, Esso and other, but NEVER the truck driver and the gas-station owner. But fuels inside airports are absolutelly trusty, even in the little fields.  

We're proud 'cause we started the ethanol program as a poor country, thirty years ago, and now we are not dancing the music played by OPEC. We also discovered very large oil fields that we're exploring under the sea, but we prefer to expand the renewable, cheaper and less polutter biofuels, while letting the oil to the petrochemicals. I know that in the oil destilation process there's so much gasoline left, but we are exporting it too. We extract more oil than we need and we're not exploring 1% of our reserves. Brazil has about 180 million people and  more than 30 million active cars and 50 million total active vehicles.  

Brazil is not a little, nor a poor country nowadays, but we have a heavy social contrast : too many poor people and too few very rich people in a natural resources-rich country. But this is changing with time and fuel production will increase life quality of the forgotten people living in distant areas. We just have to dominate the government hunger; taxes are stratosferic here.  

Some planes are runing on 100% ethanol carrying a particular technology, mainly the agriculture sprayers. They're not factory ready, but converted. Very safe and certified, the sprayers fly a lot, everyday. Believe-me: it's harder to certify a plane here than in the USA, because there's too much burocracy. Almost 100% general aviation planes here are Cessnas, Beechs and Pipers made in USA, and many Pipers built here under license by the local EMBRAER (began 1972, stoped in 1996, i think), who is making military, executive and airline jets projected here and well sold worldwide (Tucano,AMX,Legacy,Phenom, Brasilia, EMB 750, EMB 950,Lineage, etc). There are some Pipers and EMBRAER Pipers certified for ethanol (arrows,senecas), also Cessnas and Beechs. EMBRAER could research on ethanol use in aircrafts, but it moved to turbines and they are imported, so....  

I think those planes can only fly over our country, because they cannot be fuelled with AVGAS after being converted to ethanol, and there must not be alchool inside the pumps on the fields out there. They're not "flex".  

 And I know that some certified planes flying here cannot enter USA airspace, but all experimentals homebuilt here can!!! I don't understand FAA and ANAC (our FAA). It's nonsense .  

I think that the best policy while flying is to be old-line untill some tech is flown safely at least some thousand hours, then we adopt it. That's what happened to our cars, from carburators to fuel injection. And I may confess that a voice hidden behind my ear tells me not to fly an alchool powered plane yet.  

Let's enjoy the best hi-oct gas while we can, and wait for good surprises in the future.  

   

Espuny  

   

Still paying about US$ 9.00 an AVGAS  gallon ! Taxes...  

   

   

       

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys

 Enviada em: terça-feira, 12 de agosto de 2008 22:53

 Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

   

Espuny:  

   

As most planes this far north are not completely modified for the use of ethanol....  Because we have no way of knowing the state of the hydration of the ethanol in our fuel when we get it... because there is no standardization of auto fuel, even without ethanol, I can’t in good conscience use or advise anyone to use it in their plane.  

   

I expect you people are in a slightly different situation than we are in that you are using excess sugar cane to make the ethanol...  In the North food producing fields are being switched over to ethanol every day this is resulting in huge increases in the cost of most if not all meats and produce.  Don’t even think of getting any cascades hops to flavour you next brew of beer!  

   

Curiosity makes me ask if the flight authority for the planes flying on ethanol extends to Canada and the USA, assuming you had sufficiently large tanks or do you have to use 100LL in those countries?  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny

 Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:53 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

   

Hi, Noel.  

 In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture.  

Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd.  

You're right when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for gas.  

But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of alchool, not only the engine.  

I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for this particular use.  

But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels will end someday.  

I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they are for the oil derivates today.  

And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and contamination limits.   

I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol.  

As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer.  

And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences.  

I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered and equiped.  

   

Espuny  

   

paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!!  

   

do not archive  

   

       

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys

 Enviada em: domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45

 Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

   

Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel.  Generally speaking the line for high octane requirement is with a compression ratio of somewhere around 11:1.  

   

I’ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject.  Fact is no one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost effective as oil.  No one has commented either way on the poisonous, ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including ethanol and bio diesel, are burned.  One guy, a farmer I think or the holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to fuel diesel tractors..  Now I wonder how many miles they get to the injection pump.  There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates the pumps???  

   

Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so I’m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, on the ground, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol has no place in the air except in business class.  

   

As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will see it except by some accident.  As I said the stuff is corrosive and no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with the possibility of eating the ship out from under them.  Of course they could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to make the ethanol on site.  What do you figure the chances of that are??  Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time...  in above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly do to those facilities... Hmmm  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley

 Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

  

  

     

If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever.  Correct me if I am wrong folks. Been there before.   Larry  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: lkc(at)juno.com (lkc(at)juno.com)   

    

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 3:25 PM  

    

Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!  

    

   

  

My Soob is a stock NSI EA81 conversion. 

 

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