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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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 Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard! |
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This is the official test to determine how much ethanol is inside the gas here, in Brazil, where all fuels contain ethanol. All gas stations have a graded glass and, by the force of law, have to make the test you described (mixing with water, shaking and measuring) everytime a consumer asks for it. The laws determine the alchool percent in any kind of gas, and it varies depending on production disponibility and other policies.
As I said before, we have decades of experience runing engines either in real ethanol and blends with gas, and we all know how much damage it can cause to all parts of engines, exaust, carburators and other. If an engine is not specifically conceived to run on a blend of gas/methanol, please, use AVGAS.
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de lkc(at)juno.com
Enviada em: sábado, 9 de agosto de 2008 14:43
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!
I have been told that here in Alaska Costco gas doesn't have ethanol in it. An 83yr old pilot friend of mine uses the Costco gas in his beach and his experimental and showed me how to test for ethanol. Maybe some of you out there can confirm his testing. He puts water in the bottom forth of a clear soda bottle and marks the exact height of the water level. Then he fills the rest of the bottle with auto gas. He shakes it up good and lets it settle. He says the ethanol will separate out of the fuel and mix with the water. If the water level stays the same there should be no ethanol in the fuel. Does anyone know if this is right? Also when using auto gas, should I use high test or regular. I tried it 2 weeks ago with regular and my engine seemed to run a bit hotter and rougher but it could be my imagination. The fuel savings would be huge but I still worry since my tanks aren't sloshed. Layne Anchorage, AK Subaru EA81
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard! |
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Hi Espuny,
I have found that most pilots are fairly well educated as to fuel use in their particular engine. Some engines can handle ethanol and some can't.
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard! |
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Hi, Noel.
In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture.
Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd.
You're right when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for gas.
But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of alchool, not only the engine.
I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for this particular use.
But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels will end someday.
I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they are for the oil derivates today.
And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and contamination limits.
I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol.
As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer.
And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences.
I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered and equiped.
Espuny
paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!!
do not archive
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel. Generally speaking the line for high octane requirement is with a compression ratio of somewhere around 11:1.
I’ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject. Fact is no one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost effective as oil. No one has commented either way on the poisonous, ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including ethanol and bio diesel, are burned. One guy, a farmer I think or the holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to fuel diesel tractors.. Now I wonder how many miles they get to the injection pump. There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates the pumps???
Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so I’m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, on the ground, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol has no place in the air except in business class.
As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will see it except by some accident. As I said the stuff is corrosive and no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with the possibility of eating the ship out from under them. Of course they could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to make the ethanol on site. What do you figure the chances of that are?? Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time... in above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly do to those facilities... Hmmm
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!
If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever. Correct me if I am wrong folks. Been there before. Larry
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard! |
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Hi, Noel,
In fact, 100% of our ethanol is obtained from fermentation of sugar cane.
We have so much sugar cane fields that we can produce all sugar and ethanol we need in local market and there's also a large excess that's exported. The production is being increased day by day and, as we have a lot of unused land to be explored, this can be expanded many times and does not compete with food production.
More than 80% new cars sold here are for gas/ethanol in any percent of each (that's what the local industry, GM, Ford, Fiat, Honda, VW, Peugeot, Renault, Nissan... call "flex"). You buy a car and anytime you go to the station you may choose among regular, premium or ethanol, no matter what you still have inside the tank and with no need to do anything in the car, and you'll feel always the same performance. We're experienced in the uses of ethanol, so there are cars, tractors, and many oyher machines explosion-engine powereds fueled with alchool, although all the large trucks use diesel that's been progressively changed to biodiesel, this one made from soy bean that may increase the food prices. But we're learning to explore mamona to produce biodiesel, and it's poisonous, so it will not compete, but open business opportunities and grow employment in the fields. We're also beginning the production of plastic sinthesized from sugar cane alchool. Oil will finish someday...land, not.
There are solid parameters and very restrictive laws concerning fuels composition, and we can trust Petrobras, Shell, Texaco, Esso and other, but NEVER the truck driver and the gas-station owner. But fuels inside airports are absolutelly trusty, even in the little fields.
We're proud 'cause we started the ethanol program as a poor country, thirty years ago, and now we are not dancing the music played by OPEC. We also discovered very large oil fields that we're exploring under the sea, but we prefer to expand the renewable, cheaper and less polutter biofuels, while letting the oil to the petrochemicals. I know that in the oil destilation process there's so much gasoline left, but we are exporting it too. We extract more oil than we need and we're not exploring 1% of our reserves. Brazil has about 180 million people and more than 30 million active cars and 50 million total active vehicles.
Brazil is not a little, nor a poor country nowadays, but we have a heavy social contrast : too many poor people and too few very rich people in a natural resources-rich country. But this is changing with time and fuel production will increase life quality of the forgotten people living in distant areas. We just have to dominate the government hunger; taxes are stratosferic here.
Some planes are runing on 100% ethanol carrying a particular technology, mainly the agriculture sprayers. They're not factory ready, but converted. Very safe and certified, the sprayers fly a lot, everyday. Believe-me: it's harder to certify a plane here than in the USA, because there's too much burocracy. Almost 100% general aviation planes here are Cessnas, Beechs and Pipers made in USA, and many Pipers built here under license by the local EMBRAER (began 1972, stoped in 1996, i think), who is making military, executive and airline jets projected here and well sold worldwide (Tucano,AMX,Legacy,Phenom, Brasilia, EMB 750, EMB 950,Lineage, etc). There are some Pipers and EMBRAER Pipers certified for ethanol (arrows,senecas), also Cessnas and Beechs. EMBRAER could research on ethanol use in aircrafts, but it moved to turbines and they are imported, so....
I think those planes can only fly over our country, because they cannot be fuelled with AVGAS after being converted to ethanol, and there must not be alchool inside the pumps on the fields out there. They're not "flex".
And I know that some certified planes flying here cannot enter USA airspace, but all experimentals homebuilt here can!!! I don't understand FAA and ANAC (our FAA). It's nonsense .
I think that the best policy while flying is to be old-line untill some tech is flown safely at least some thousand hours, then we adopt it. That's what happened to our cars, from carburators to fuel injection. And I may confess that a voice hidden behind my ear tells me not to fly an alchool powered plane yet.
Let's enjoy the best hi-oct gas while we can, and wait for good surprises in the future.
Espuny
Still paying about US$ 9.00 an AVGAS gallon ! Taxes...
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: terça-feira, 12 de agosto de 2008 22:53
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Espuny:
As most planes this far north are not completely modified for the use of ethanol.... Because we have no way of knowing the state of the hydration of the ethanol in our fuel when we get it... because there is no standardization of auto fuel, even without ethanol, I can’t in good conscience use or advise anyone to use it in their plane.
I expect you people are in a slightly different situation than we are in that you are using excess sugar cane to make the ethanol... In the North food producing fields are being switched over to ethanol every day this is resulting in huge increases in the cost of most if not all meats and produce. Don’t even think of getting any cascades hops to flavour you next brew of beer!
Curiosity makes me ask if the flight authority for the planes flying on ethanol extends to Canada and the USA, assuming you had sufficiently large tanks or do you have to use 100LL in those countries?
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:53 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Hi, Noel.
In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture.
Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd.
You're right when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for gas.
But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of alchool, not only the engine.
I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for this particular use.
But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels will end someday.
I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they are for the oil derivates today.
And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and contamination limits.
I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol.
As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer.
And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences.
I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered and equiped.
Espuny
paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!!
do not archive
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel. Generally speaking the line for high octane requirement is with a compression ratio of somewhere around 11:1.
I’ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject. Fact is no one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost effective as oil. No one has commented either way on the poisonous, ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including ethanol and bio diesel, are burned. One guy, a farmer I think or the holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to fuel diesel tractors.. Now I wonder how many miles they get to the injection pump. There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates the pumps???
Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so I’m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, on the ground, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol has no place in the air except in business class.
As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will see it except by some accident. As I said the stuff is corrosive and no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with the possibility of eating the ship out from under them. Of course they could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to make the ethanol on site. What do you figure the chances of that are?? Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time... in above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly do to those facilities... Hmmm
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!
If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever. Correct me if I am wrong folks. Been there before. Larry
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shinco(at)bright.net
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard! |
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Francisco Espuny wrote:
[quote]
Hi, Noel,
In fact, 100% of our ethanol is obtained from fermentation of sugar cane.
We have so much sugar cane fields that we can produce all sugar and
ethanol we need in local market and there's also a large excess that's
exported. The production is being increased day by day and, as we have
a lot of unused land to be explored, this can be expanded many times
and does not compete with food production.
More than 80% new cars sold here are for gas/ethanol in any percent of
each (that's what the local industry, GM, Ford, Fiat, Honda, VW,
Peugeot, Renault, Nissan... call "flex"). You buy a car and anytime
you go to the station you may choose among regular, premium or
ethanol, no matter what you still have inside the tank and with no
need to do anything in the car, and you'll feel always the same
performance. We're experienced in the uses of ethanol, so there are
cars, tractors, and many oyher machines explosion-engine powereds
fueled with alchool, although all the large trucks use diesel that's
been progressively changed to biodiesel, this one made from soy bean
that may increase the food prices. But we're learning to explore
mamona to produce biodiesel, and it's poisonous, so it will not
compete, but open business opportunities and grow employment in the
fields. We're also beginning the production of plastic sinthesized
from sugar cane alchool. Oil will finish someday...land, not.
There are solid parameters and very restrictive laws concerning fuels
composition, and we can trust Petrobras, Shell, Texaco, Esso and
other, but NEVER the truck driver and the gas-station owner. But fuels
inside airports are absolutelly trusty, even in the little fields.
We're proud 'cause we started the ethanol program as a poor country,
thirty years ago, and now we are not dancing the music played by OPEC.
We also discovered very large oil fields that we're exploring under
the sea, but we prefer to expand the renewable, cheaper and less
polutter biofuels, while letting the oil to the petrochemicals. I know
that in the oil destilation process there's so much gasoline left, but
we are exporting it too. We extract more oil than we need and we're
not exploring 1% of our reserves. Brazil has about 180 million people
and more than 30 million active cars and 50 million total active vehicles.
Brazil is not a little, nor a poor country nowadays, but we have a
heavy social contrast : too many poor people and too few very rich
people in a natural resources-rich country. But this is changing with
time and fuel production will increase life quality of the forgotten
people living in distant areas. We just have to dominate the
government hunger; taxes are stratosferic here.
Some planes are runing on 100% ethanol carrying a particular
technology, mainly the agriculture sprayers. *They're not factory
ready*, but converted. Very safe and certified, the sprayers fly a
lot, everyday. Believe-me: it's harder to certify a plane here than in
the USA, because there's too much burocracy. Almost 100% general
aviation planes here are Cessnas, Beechs and Pipers made in USA, and
many Pipers built here under license by the local EMBRAER (began 1972,
stoped in 1996, i think), who is making military, executive and
airline jets projected here and well sold worldwide
(Tucano,AMX,Legacy,Phenom, Brasilia, EMB 750, EMB 950,Lineage, etc).
There are some Pipers and EMBRAER Pipers certified for ethanol
(arrows,senecas), also Cessnas and Beechs. EMBRAER could research on
ethanol use in aircrafts, but it moved to turbines and they are
imported, so....
I think those planes can only fly over our country, because they
cannot be fuelled with AVGAS after being converted to ethanol, and
there must not be alchool inside the pumps on the fields out there.
They're not "flex".
And I know that some certified planes flying here cannot enter USA
airspace, but all experimentals homebuilt here can!!! I don't
understand FAA and ANAC (our FAA). It's nonsense .
I think that the best policy while flying is to be old-line untill
some tech is flown safely at least some thousand hours, then we adopt
it. That's what happened to our cars, from carburators to fuel
injection. And I may confess that a voice hidden behind my ear tells
me not to fly an alchool powered plane yet.
Let's enjoy the best hi-oct gas while we can, and wait for good
surprises in the future.
Espuny
Still paying about US$ 9.00 an AVGAS gallon ! Taxes...
*De:* owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] *Em nome de *Noel Loveys
*Enviada em:* terça-feira, 12 de agosto de 2008 22:53
*Para:* kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
*Assunto:* RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Espuny:
As most planes this far north are not completely modified for the use
of ethanol.... Because we have no way of knowing the state of the
hydration of the ethanol in our fuel when we get it... because there
is no standardization of auto fuel, even without ethanol, I can’t in
good conscience use or advise anyone to use it in their plane.
I expect you people are in a slightly different situation than we are
in that you are using excess sugar cane to make the ethanol... In the
North food producing fields are being switched over to ethanol every
day this is resulting in huge increases in the cost of most if not all
meats and produce. Don’t even think of getting any cascades hops to
flavour you next brew of beer!
Curiosity makes me ask if the flight authority for the planes flying
on ethanol extends to Canada and the USA, assuming you had
sufficiently large tanks or do you have to use 100LL in those countries?
Noel
*From:* owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
*Francisco Espuny
*Sent:* Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:53 PM
*To:* kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RES: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Hi, Noel.
In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main
problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture.
Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts
sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd.
*You're right* when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for
gas.
But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of
certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just
hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's
necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of
alchool, not only the engine.
I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in
your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for
this particular use.
But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and
history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels
will end someday.
I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and
the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they
are for the oil derivates today.
And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and
contamination limits.
I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol.
As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be
the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I
argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer.
And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences.
I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for
decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered
and equiped.
Espuny
paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!!
do not archive
*De:* owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] *Em nome de *Noel Loveys
*Enviada em:* domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45
*Para:* kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
*Assunto:* RE: 91 octane, time to be heard!
Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine
pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel. _Generally
speaking_ the line for high octane requirement is with a compression
ratio of somewhere around 11:1.
I’ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do
tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject. Fact is no
one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost
effective as oil. No one has commented either way on the poisonous,
ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including
ethanol and bio diesel, are burned. One guy, a farmer I think or the
holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to
fuel diesel tractors.. Now I wonder how many miles they get to the
injection pump. There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates
the pumps???
Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so
I’m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, _on the
ground_, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol
has no place in the air except in business class.
As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will
see it except by some accident. As I said the stuff is corrosive and
no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with
the possibility of eating the ship out from under them. Of course they
could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to
make the ethanol on site. What do you figure the chances of that are??
Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time... in
above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly
do to those facilities... Hmmm
Noel
*From:* owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry
Huntley
*Sent:* Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM
*To:* kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: 91 octane, time to be heard!
If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and
should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the
difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever. Correct me if I am
wrong folks. Been there before. Larry
---
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