Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Light Sport certification

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Light Sport certification

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

I am now the proud owner of an ELSA certified, flyable!, UK imported Kitfox

II. My DAR just left, leaving my Airworthiness Certificate and a lot of

paperwork behind, and said "go fly it!". For 5 hours in a test area only,

but then free as a bird.



I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified

Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. So it

looks like Light Sport is a much better category for anyone owning a Kitfox

that is not the original builder. Once I have taken the 16 hour ELSA

Airplane Repair-Inspection course I can do all my own work and annual

inspection.



Time to add a few more tie-wraps and go flying )))



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa

Kyle

Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 15
Location: Western Kentucky

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Light Sport certification

Congratulations Bob,



I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was because you had registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the Jan. 31, 2008 deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit builders now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended on Jan. 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the process with the FAA before that date.



Again Congratulations,

_________________
Kyle Dunn
Eddyville, Kentucky
Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax
1978 Cessna 172 N
American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax
Rotorway Exec.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Light Sport certification

CONGRATS !!!!!!!!

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan

31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get

it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness

Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one prove a

negative? (that's rhetorical...)



Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as

Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for

Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox...

)



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

Bob sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as

Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for

Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox...


	


No, sport pilots are fine.  You are confusing the aircraft's category 

with the pilot qualifications necessary to operate them.  Sport 

pilots can fly any aircraft that meets the sport pilot limitations, 

regardless of whether it is an Experimental Light Sport, Certified 

Light Sport, or Experimental.



The airplane's category affects only the requirements for maintenance 

and inspections.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot rule.  A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft rule.

  

 John Kerr

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> 



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" 

 

 Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan 

 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get 

 it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness 

 Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one prove a 

 negative? (that's rhetorical...) 

 

 Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as 

 Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for 

 Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox... 

 ) 

 

 Bob Brennan 

 1991 UK   Model  2 ELSA Kitfox 

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

 Wrightsville Pa 

 

 --

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the  "limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft rule"  specifically?

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  kerrjohna(at)comcast.net

Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Light Sport  certification

 There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot  rule.  A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental amature  built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft  rule.

 John Kerr

 [quote]--------------    Original message -------------- 

From: "Bob Brennan"    <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> 

[quote] --> Kitfox-List message    posted by: "Bob Brennan" 

 Yes -    to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan 

    31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get    

 it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness    

 Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one    prove a 

 negative? (that's rhetorical...) 

 Hard to    believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as 

    Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for    

 Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my    Kitfox... 

 ) 

 Bob Brennan 

 1991 UK Model 2    ELSA Kitfox 

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

 Wrightsville Pa    

 --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

I think some of you are confusing Light Sport Aircraft and Sport  

Pilot. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "Light Sport  

Aircraft rule." There are limitations on the Sport Pilot, and what,  

where, and when he or she can fly, but the LSA is an aircraft, and  

must meet the limitations/restrictions of Light Sport Aircraft,  

mainly the gross weight rule, but certainly the speed and possibly  

the number of passengers comes to mind.



I've heard people talk about Light Sport Pilot...(making up new names  

as they go)....and try as I may (in my own little way) I can't get  

them to call the pilot by the right title. I told one guy: "Look at  

this beer gut on me...do you think I'm a LIGHT sport pilot?"



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the "limitations of  

 the Light Sport Aircraft rule" specifically?



 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- 

 list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrjohna(at)comcast.net

 Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Light Sport certification



 There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot  

 rule.  A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental  

 amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light  

 Sport Aircraft rule.



 John Kerr



 -------------- Original message --------------

 From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 > 

 >

 > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number  

 before Jan

 > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9  

 months to get

 > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness

 > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one  

 prove a

 > negative? (that's rhetorical...)

 >

 > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be  

 certified as

 > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on?  

 Sucks for

 > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my  

 Kitfox...

 > )

 >

 > Bob Brennan

 > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 > Wrightsville Pa

 >

 > --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

Congratulations Bob for having successfully negotiated the FAA regulatory minefield. Others will no doubt follow in your footsteps someday. Now go out and have fun.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box



--- On Wed, 8/13/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: Light Sport certification

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 11:47 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan"

<matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 

I am now the proud owner of an ELSA certified, flyable!, UK imported Kitfox

II. My DAR just left, leaving my Airworthiness Certificate and a lot of

paperwork behind, and said "go fly it!". For 5 hours in a test area

only,

but then free as a bird.



I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified

Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. So it

looks like Light Sport is a much better category for anyone owning a Kitfox

that is not the original builder. Once I have taken the 16 hour ELSA

Airplane Repair-Inspection course I can do all my own work and annual

inspection.



Time to add a few more tie-wraps and go flying )))



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



	
	


           [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Light Sport certification

 	  Quote: 	
		  From http://www.sportpilot.org/interest/privileges_limitations.html


	


"Allows sport pilots to fly production (standard airworthiness certificate)

and experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of a

light-sport aircraft." 



So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category

requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can

*not* fly any larger/faster aircraft. Of course, who determines if a

non-certificated Light Sport eligible aircraft really qualifies is

ambiguous, and as I found out the hard way the FAA can easily say "no it

isn't..." if they feel like it. It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that

flies a non-ELSA plane is wide open to being charged with flying outside

his/her privileges without a long drawn out argument with the FAA. Like I

just had!



Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental

Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally. But if caught by

the FAA they would have approached my claim that my Kitfox was ELSA-eligible

from a persecution (oops, I'm sure I meant "prosecution") standpoint and I

could well have lost the battle.



Just my 2 cents from recent perspective. And experience.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Bob I think that battle has already been fought. The EAA has a list 

of the planes that a sport pilot can fly with no issues. All you have 

to do is ask.

PAul

===========

At 01:56 PM 8/13/2008, you wrote:

[quote]



 >From http://www.sportpilot.org/interest/privileges_limitations.html



"Allows sport pilots to fly production (standard airworthiness certificate)

and experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of a

light-sport aircraft."



So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category

requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can

*not* fly any larger/faster aircraft. Of course, who determines if a

non-certificated Light Sport eligible aircraft really qualifies is

ambiguous, and as I found out the hard way the FAA can easily say "no it

isn't..." if they feel like it. It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that

flies a non-ELSA plane is wide open to being charged with flying outside

his/her privileges without a long drawn out argument with the FAA. Like I

just had!



Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental

Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally. But if caught by

the FAA they would have approached my claim that my Kitfox was ELSA-eligible

from a persecution (oops, I'm sure I meant "prosecution") standpoint and I

could well have lost the battle.



Just my 2 cents from recent perspective. And experience.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

kcflys

Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Rancho Cordova, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Bob,



Congrats, and welcome.  Enjoy and pass along your knowledge.



Keith C.

Mod IV Speedster 912 IVO

Mather (MHR) CA



---

_________________
Keith C.
kitfox wannabe
C-150
Rancho Cordova CA

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

 	  Quote: 	
		  So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category

requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can

*not* fly any larger/faster aircraft.


	


No, a Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets the requirements 

for that license.



"Sport Pilot" is a type of pilot certificate.  "Light Sport Airplane" 

is a category of aircraft certification.  The two are not directly 

related.  The "Light Sport Airplane" category was introduced to 

simplify the certification and maintenance requirements for very 

small airplanes while "Sport Pilot" was intended to reduce the 

training requirements (and operational flexibility) for pilots.



 	  Quote: 	
		  It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that flies a non-ELSA plane is 

wide open to being charged with flying outside his/her privileges 

without a long drawn out argument with the FAA.


	


Not at all.  Plenty of sport pilots are flying certificated 

airplanes, like Luscombes and Cubs, and various experimental aircraft 

(including Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers) that meet the sport pilot 

limitations and are not ELSAs.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental

Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally.


	


If it meets the operational and performance limits for sport pilot 

operation, yes.



 	  Quote: 	
		  But if caught by the FAA they would have approached my claim that my 

Kitfox was ELSA-eligible...


	


Has nothing to do with it.  You can read the details on the FAA's web site:



Sport Pilot Certificate

   <http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/>



Light Sport Aircraft

   <http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/>

Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Bob sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified

Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped.


	


The plane isn't excluded from night or IFR flight, but a sport pilot 

flying it would be.  In order to operate a properly-equipped light 

sport aircraft at night the pilot would have to hold at least a 

private pilot certificate with a valid medical and to operate IFR he 

or she would also have to be instrument rated.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Exactly, which is part of the "confusion". I, as a fully rated PPL, could

fly my ELSA aircraft at night and/or IFR if properly equipped. A holder of a

Sport Pilot ticket could not, in any aircraft.



The confusion mostly comes from the fact that a Sport pilot is not

restricted to flying an ELSA certificated aircraft, and can fly any aircraft

that "meets ELSA requirements". Tell that to Dan McIntyre who could

technically legally fly his Amateur Built certificated (soon...) Kitfox IV

on a Sport Pilot ticket - the FAA official who has told him his airplane is

*not* ELSA eligible could now burn his ticket. While still in his wallet.

While still in his pants.



I just spent more than 2 months and more than $1,000 getting a real ELSA

certificate for my Kitfox 2 that was clearly ELSA-eligible; I doubt the FAA

would have agreed that it is ELSA-eligible if I was caught flying it in

restricted airspace on a Sport Pilot ticket and it wasn't ELSA certificated.

I would get done for airspace violations *and* flying outside the privileges

of my license, for sure. Which would be defensible yes, but time and money

consuming.



I just think, in my now-getting-tedious-opinion<g>, that a Sport Pilot

flying a non Light Sport aircraft is taking a risk.



Bob Brennan 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox 

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa 



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Excellent information Paul, thank you.

I think the info is here for future readers of this thread:

http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/



Note though that there are no Kitfoxes on that list...



My experience with the FAA however is that the whole Sport Pilot / Light

Sport Aircraft thing is "too new" and it is still up to the pilot to defend,

sometimes at great expense (there he goes again!), their position and rights

under the new rules. I also would like to note that the EAA and AOPA have

been *very* supportive of their members regarding these issues.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Bob sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Excellent information Paul, thank you.

I think the info is here for future readers of this thread:

http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/



Note though that there are no Kitfoxes on that list...


	


That doesn't mean much.  This is a list of airplanes that people have 

had airworthiness certificates issued to as Special Light Sport 

Aircraft--nothing more.  It doesn't mean that these airplanes are the 

only ones that a Sport Pilot can operate and it doesn't mean you have 

to change the certification of, for example, a Luscombe Silvaire to 

SLSA in order to operate it as a Sport Pilot.  It also isn't a 

comprehensive list, it's just the ones that EAA is aware of.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

Bob sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The confusion mostly comes from the fact that a Sport pilot is not

restricted to flying an ELSA certificated aircraft, and can fly any aircraft

that "meets ELSA requirements".


	


No, the confusion comes because they have nothing to do with each 

other yet they both refer to "sport".  ELSA requirements apply to the 

type of airplanes that can be certified as "Light Sport Airplanes". 

A Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets Sport Pilot operating 

restrictions, regardless of the type of certification (if any) the 

airplane underwent.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Tell that to Dan McIntyre who could technically legally fly his 

Amateur Built certificated (soon...) Kitfox IV on a Sport Pilot 

ticket - the FAA official who has told him his airplane is *not* 

ELSA eligible could now burn his ticket.


	


Whether or not his airplane qualifies as ELSA has nothing to do with 

it.  If the airplane meets Sport Pilot limitations, he can operate it 

legally as a Sport Pilot.  No burning wallets or pants.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I just spent more than 2 months and more than $1,000 getting a real ELSA

certificate for my Kitfox 2 that was clearly ELSA-eligible...


	


What you bought with your money, time and trouble is a difference in 

the way your aircraft can be maintained and inspected--something 

valuable to you since you did not build the aircraft.  It has no 

bearing on what type of pilot certificate is required to fly it and 

would provide little benefit to the builder who maintains and 

inspects his own airplane unless he sold it later.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I doubt the FAA would have agreed that it is ELSA-eligible if I was 

caught flying it in restricted airspace on a Sport Pilot ticket and 

it wasn't ELSA certificated.  I would get done for airspace 

violations *and* flying outside the privileges of my license, for 

sure.


	


No, you wouldn't.  Assuming that your aircraft meets the limitations 

for Sport Pilots to operate it, you'd be perfectly legal to fly it as 

an Experimental, Experimental Light Sport, or if it had been 

certified as Normal or Light Sport categories.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I just think, in my now-getting-tedious-opinion<g>, that a Sport Pilot

flying a non Light Sport aircraft is taking a risk.


	


You really need to read those sections of the FARs that I posted the links to.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Light Sport certification

I agree with everything you say here Mike, I was simply relating my

real-world experiences with the new rules for the benefit of anyone on the

list who might share similar challenges.



I was *very* fortunate to find helpful and persistent sources at the FAA,

CAA, LAA, EAA, and this list just to name a few of my contacts during this

"adventure". On my very first trip to my local FSDO I was told point blank

"no way" I would ever be able to register and certificate my UK-built Kitfox

here in the US. But for the persistence on many people's part, he would have

been right.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum