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John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: Fly-in

Hi Jim,



I still want to make it to the fly-in, but I've had a rough start to my 

week. Morris found that the case on my right engine is cracked...pretty 

badly. So I have no airplane for the moment. Sadly this is my "new" 

engine (800hrs. TTSO).



I'll know more by next week, in time to make the deadline.



Cheers,



/John



yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The Fly-In is just around the corner and we're sure getting excited to 

 see everyone.  Just want to remind everyone that the deadline for 

 getting the group rate at the Marriott is August 28th so be sure to 

 make your reservations.  Also be sure to register with us for the 

 Fly-In so we can give the caterers the proper headcount. 



 See You in Oklahoma City!!

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadgets that 

 make the grade on AOL Shopping 

 <http://shopping.aol.com/back-to-school?ncid=aolins00050000000007>.

 *

 *

rcdettmer(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Fly-in

John,

Sorry to hear about your engine.  Believe me, I feel your pain.  As you

know, my engines made it to 700 hours.  Hope that you will be back in the

air soon.



Randy Dettmer, AIA

680F / N6253X



Dettmer Architecture

663 Hill Street

San Luis Obispo, CA  93405

805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865

www.dettmerarchitecture.com



--

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Fly-in

Ouch.....



Narrow case engine? Those cases are starting to get tough to find?



Steve

---

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Fly-in

Hey, maybe this is my opportunity to step up to wide-deck engines. What 

say you, Dan Farmer? I remember I liked the way your airplane flew!



/John



Steve at Col-East wrote:

[quote] 

 <steve2(at)sover.net>



 Ouch.....



 Narrow case engine? Those cases are starting to get tough to find?



 Steve

 ---

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Fly-in

John Vormbaum wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Hey, maybe this is my opportunity to step up to wide-deck engines. 


	


Sorry to hear about your trauma John.  That's certainly no fun and is 

going to cost some money to deal with.  The wide-deck engines are 

certainly more desirable, but a well-built narrow-deck is a good engine 

too.  No idea if your case is repairable or not since I haven't seen it, 

but Divco in Tulsa, OK does a LOT of Lycoming case repairs and they 

really know their stuff.  Just out of curiosity, have you had your 

engines/props balanced?  A really smoothly balanced engine will have a 

lot fewer problems with case cracks and fretting.

chris

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Fly-in

Chris,

John Towner also recommended Divco. I'll check them out.

The case is probably repairable; it's just that we have to split it, 

which means new bearings, and then why not top it.....but then why not 

just do a complete overhaul? And if I'm going to pay for that and my 

other engine is past TBO, why not get the wide decks?

I didn't do the dynamic prop balancing. I sort of imagine that case 

cracks are due to the crank....if it doesn't crack, your crank is good. 

If it does crack, your crank isn't as well balanced as it could be. My 

other engine has >1,600 SMOH and runs like a swiss watch. I just have a 

good engine on that side. This engine has ~800 hours and has been 

responsible for 70% of my engine difficulties in the near decade I've 

owned my airplane.

/J

Chris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 John Vormbaum wrote:

>

> Hey, maybe this is my opportunity to step up to wide-deck engines. 

 Sorry to hear about your trauma John.  That's certainly no fun and is 

 going to cost some money to deal with.  The wide-deck engines are 

 certainly more desirable, but a well-built narrow-deck is a good 

 engine too.  No idea if your case is repairable or not since I haven't 

 seen it, but Divco in Tulsa, OK does a LOT of Lycoming case repairs 

 and they really know their stuff.  Just out of curiosity, have you had 

 your engines/props balanced?  A really smoothly balanced engine will 

 have a lot fewer problems with case cracks and fretting.

 chris

 .

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Fly-in

I think we'd second or third Divco.



Sure as heck not an 'authority', but a couple sweet running narrow case 

engines have started wearing the cam lobes that are pulling double duty, 

somewhere around >1750 or so for us.



Guess I'm geeky enough to be real interested in a teardown report on both 

your good and bad mill.



Steve

---

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Fly-in

Steve, I'll share what I find with the group.



/John



Steve at Col-East wrote:

[quote] 

 <steve2(at)sover.net>



 I think we'd second or third Divco.



 Sure as heck not an 'authority', but a couple sweet running narrow 

 case engines have started wearing the cam lobes that are pulling 

 double duty, somewhere around >1750 or so for us.



 Guess I'm geeky enough to be real interested in a teardown report on 

 both your good and bad mill.



 Steve

 ---

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Fly-in

 	  Quote: 	
		  > I didn't do the dynamic prop balancing. I sort of imagine that case 

> cracks are due to the crank....if it doesn't crack, your crank is 

> good. If it does crack, your crank isn't as well balanced as it could 

> be. 


	


There are some pretty significant quality differences between a typical 

field overhaul and one done by a true expert.  A precision builder will 

match the con rod weights then balance both the big and small ends.  

Carefully matched counterweights with good, true bushings will help 

significantly as well.  The crank can be spin balanced with 

counterweights in place for a final bottom end check.  A really careful 

builder will sort through many new pistons to find parts that are 

closely matched, then install them opposite of each other.  If all of 

these steps are taken, you'll have an incredibly smooth engine that will 

be highly unlikely to develop cracks.  Accessory,  instrument, and 

airframe problems associated with vibration are all also minimized.

chris

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Fly-in

Chris, sounds like assembling airplane engines is as much art as science!

Chris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>> I didn't do the dynamic prop balancing. I sort of imagine that case 

>> cracks are due to the crank....if it doesn't crack, your crank is 

>> good. If it does crack, your crank isn't as well balanced as it 

>> could be. 

 There are some pretty significant quality differences between a 

 typical field overhaul and one done by a true expert.  A precision 

 builder will match the con rod weights then balance both the big and 

 small ends.  Carefully matched counterweights with good, true bushings 

 will help significantly as well.  The crank can be spin balanced with 

 counterweights in place for a final bottom end check.  A really 

 careful builder will sort through many new pistons to find parts that 

 are closely matched, then install them opposite of each other.  If all 

 of these steps are taken, you'll have an incredibly smooth engine that 

 will be highly unlikely to develop cracks.  Accessory,  instrument, 

 and airframe problems associated with vibration are all also minimized.

 chris

 .

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Fly-in

John Vormbaum wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Chris, sounds like assembling airplane engines is as much art as science! 


	


There's a little art for sure - but quality and experience are key.  Any 

turkey with a toolbox and a manual can bolt one together that will run, 

but a craftsman can build an engine that will run to TBO and beyond 

without needing to be touched.  When you have your engines done, go with 

a quality builder and I'd strongly suggest factory new cylinders.  

Factory Lyc jugs are good for a trouble-free TBO run.  By the time 

they've accumulated 2000hrs, they almost all have significant metal 

fatigue and a good inspection will usually find small cracks beginning 

to form.  Sure, they can be welded up and re-worked, but it's unlikely 

that you'll have another reliable run to TBO.  Out of my 12 cylinders 

with 2000 hrs since new, we found cracks in 10 of them at teardown.  

I'll let someone else re-use them then have to top one or two every few 

hundred hours.  Spend a few minutes looking at trade-a-plane to prove my 

point.  You'll find tons of 800 SMOH, 200 STOP engines out there.

ya tend to get what you pay for.....

chris



or.... "it all depends"....

tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Fly-in

John, I

If you have not gone through an engine shop you should see one.



Victor Engines right on the Palo Alto shop is a very high end engine  

shop.  Get them to give you a tour.

It is an experience.

They do not have a tolerance on weight of parts.  They will go thought  

a  bunch of pistons to match 6 just alike.

Same goes for piston rods, and other things.



I went through their shop over 10 years ago.



I understand Lyc has roller cam lifters now.



Tylor Hall



On Aug 13, 2008, at 6:11 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <john(at)vormbaum.com>



 Chris, sounds like assembling airplane engines is as much art as  

 science!



 Chris wrote:

> 

>>> I didn't do the dynamic prop balancing. I sort of imagine that  

>>> case cracks are due to the crank....if it doesn't crack, your  

>>> crank is good. If it does crack, your crank isn't as well  

>>> balanced as it could be.

>

> There are some pretty significant quality differences between a  

> typical field overhaul and one done by a true expert.  A precision  

> builder will match the con rod weights then balance both the big  

> and small ends.  Carefully matched counterweights with good, true  

> bushings will help significantly as well.  The crank can be spin  

> balanced with counterweights in place for a final bottom end  

> check.  A really careful builder will sort through many new pistons  

> to find parts that are closely matched, then install them opposite  

> of each other.  If all of these steps are taken, you'll have an  

> incredibly smooth engine that will be highly unlikely to develop  

> cracks.  Accessory,  instrument, and airframe problems associated  

> with vibration are all also minimized.

> chris

>

> .

>

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Fly-in

Tylor,

I'll have to check Victor out. I've walked past their shop about 700 

times in the last decade, but have never stopped in. I did detour over 

there once to look at the Hoover Hornet, which was parked in front of 

the shop for engine work. Got a good closeup look at that well used yoke 

& throttle quadrant. "Yeah, I touched Hoover's airplane."

Roller motors for my airplane sound like a sweet idea. If they work 

anywhere near as well as the '60s-era Mustangs me & my friends built 

back in the 80's (think roller 351, 390 and 428) it should work pretty 

well, and be the envy of all my friends....

/J

Tylor Hall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>

 John, I

 If you have not gone through an engine shop you should see one.

 Victor Engines right on the Palo Alto shop is a very high end engine 

 shop.  Get them to give you a tour.

 It is an experience.

 They do not have a tolerance on weight of parts.  They will go thought 

 a  bunch of pistons to match 6 just alike.

 Same goes for piston rods, and other things.

 I went through their shop over 10 years ago.

 I understand Lyc has roller cam lifters now.

 Tylor Hall

 On Aug 13, 2008, at 6:11 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:

> 

>

> Chris, sounds like assembling airplane engines is as much art as 

> science!

>

> Chris wrote:

>> 

>>

>>

>>>> I didn't do the dynamic prop balancing. I sort of imagine that 

>>>> case cracks are due to the crank....if it doesn't crack, your 

>>>> crank is good. If it does crack, your crank isn't as well balanced 

>>>> as it could be.

>>

>> There are some pretty significant quality differences between a 

>> typical field overhaul and one done by a true expert.  A precision 

>> builder will match the con rod weights then balance both the big and 

>> small ends.  Carefully matched counterweights with good, true 

>> bushings will help significantly as well.  The crank can be spin 

>> balanced with counterweights in place for a final bottom end check.  

>> A really careful builder will sort through many new pistons to find 

>> parts that are closely matched, then install them opposite of each 

>> other.  If all of these steps are taken, you'll have an incredibly 

>> smooth engine that will be highly unlikely to develop cracks.  

>> Accessory,  instrument, and airframe problems associated with 

>> vibration are all also minimized.

>> chris

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> .

>>

>

>

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Fly-in

I hear that....

Chris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 John Vormbaum wrote:

>

> Chris, sounds like assembling airplane engines is as much art as 

> science! 

 There's a little art for sure - but quality and experience are key.  

 Any turkey with a toolbox and a manual can bolt one together that will 

 run, but a craftsman can build an engine that will run to TBO and 

 beyond without needing to be touched.  When you have your engines 

 done, go with a quality builder and I'd strongly suggest factory new 

 cylinders.  Factory Lyc jugs are good for a trouble-free TBO run.  By 

 the time they've accumulated 2000hrs, they almost all have significant 

 metal fatigue and a good inspection will usually find small cracks 

 beginning to form.  Sure, they can be welded up and re-worked, but 

 it's unlikely that you'll have another reliable run to TBO.  Out of my 

 12 cylinders with 2000 hrs since new, we found cracks in 10 of them at 

 teardown.  I'll let someone else re-use them then have to top one or 

 two every few hundred hours.  Spend a few minutes looking at 

 trade-a-plane to prove my point.  You'll find tons of 800 SMOH, 200 

 STOP engines out there.

 ya tend to get what you pay for.....

 chris

 or.... "it all depends"....

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Fly-in

I wouldn't do Victor's.  I've seen *big* problems with customer service. If you are in the NorCal area, you could solicit some advice from the folks at sacramento sky ranch. OR, probably best, get a reman from the factory, which accrues to value of the aircraft.



--

moe-rosspistons(at)hotmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Fly-in

Tylor,



How can they not have a tolerance on weight or parts?  There is always a 

tolerance on balance jobs, just as there must be a tolerance on all machined 

objects.  Do you remember what there tolerance is?  As I remember Victor 

consulted with the late Keith Black of Keith Black Racing Engines back in 

the 80's when balancing became an issue for them (Victor).  At that time 

Keith was using Gary Thompson of Automotive Balance Service for his 

balancing and their standard tolerance was plus or minus one gram.



Also, while I heartily concur that it is generally a good idea to replace 

the cylinders with Lycoming new, this certainly does not guarantee a trouble 

free engine.  I have had the top portion of three exhaust valve guides fail 

(they brake into many small pieces and you find them in the oil screen, the 

valve cover and the oil filter) for no apparent reason when they had between 

400 and 600 hours on them in my IGSO540B1A engines.



Regards,



Moe

N680RR

680F(p)

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Tylor Hall" <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>

Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:26 PM

To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Fly-in



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>



 John, I

 If you have not gone through an engine shop you should see one.



 Victor Engines right on the Palo Alto shop is a very high end engine 

 shop.  Get them to give you a tour.

 It is an experience.

 They do not have a tolerance on weight of parts.  They will go thought  a 

 bunch of pistons to match 6 just alike.

 Same goes for piston rods, and other things.



 I went through their shop over 10 years ago.



 I understand Lyc has roller cam lifters now.



 Tylor Hall



 On Aug 13, 2008, at 6:11 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:



> 

>

> Chris, sounds like assembling airplane engines is as much art as 

> science!

>

> Chris wrote:

>> 

>>

>>

>>>> I didn't do the dynamic prop balancing. I sort of imagine that  case 

>>>> cracks are due to the crank....if it doesn't crack, your  crank is 

>>>> good. If it does crack, your crank isn't as well  balanced as it could 

>>>> be.

>>

>> There are some pretty significant quality differences between a  typical 

>> field overhaul and one done by a true expert.  A precision  builder will 

>> match the con rod weights then balance both the big  and small ends. 

>> Carefully matched counterweights with good, true  bushings will help 

>> significantly as well.  The crank can be spin  balanced with 

>> counterweights in place for a final bottom end  check.  A really careful 

>> builder will sort through many new pistons  to find parts that are 

>> closely matched, then install them opposite  of each other.  If all of 

>> these steps are taken, you'll have an  incredibly smooth engine that 

>> will be highly unlikely to develop  cracks.  Accessory,  instrument, and 

>> airframe problems associated  with vibration are all also minimized.

>> chris

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> .

>>

>

>

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: Fly-in

If you don't object, I'd like to put that on the website.

 



--

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: Fly-in

Absolutely....as soon as I hear.



/J



nico css wrote:

[quote] 



 If you don't object, I'd like to put that on the website.

  



 --

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Fly-in

John-



Sorry to hear about your cracked case.  That is a lousy way to wind up the

summer- especially given how little of it was flyable on account of the fact

that California decided to immolate itself this year...



I was amazed to see you've owned your commander for nearly a decade!  For

some reason I thought you were more recently acquainted than this!



Hope you get back in the air soon!



Robert S. Randazzo

N414C

--

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