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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: N registered Yak aircraft |
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Does anyone know if American registered Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang aircraft can keep their American registration outside the USA ?
It is possible for non American citizens to have a November registered aircraft outside the USA, if the plane is brought to a Trust Company. A very complex matter but absolutely legal and safe.
But I suppose that there are quite some restrictions. One such Trust Company that I’ve contacted says that it does not work for a Yak. If so, I’d liked to know why.
Jan Mevis
Yak 50 RA2005K
[quote][b]
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Dabear(at)damned.org
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: N registered Yak aircraft |
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I would think that 3 things stopped it from working, but I'm not a lawyer or expert on the faa....
1) the 300nm limit on the operating limitations...(the FSDO had to know where you were based). That "might" change now that requirement is removed
2) the fact that my OL says operations of the aircraft outside the US is not allowed without prior approval of the country flown into (many do not recognize our experimental Exhibition cert)
3) getting a US A&P to sign off on the annual each year.
Those are the quick things that come to mind at 5:30 in the morning...
dabear
[quote] ---
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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: N registered Yak aircraft |
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Jan,
The trust thing only works for N-registered aircraft which fall in the normal registration category.
Planes like the Yaks, CJ’s and T28’s (i.e. all ex military) fall in the experimental category and are there for not allowed to fly outside the USA.
That is what I have been told by the FAA and our own officials. I would like to bring a T28 to Holland but have given up on that because of the registration thing. Finding a T28 in the normal category is merely impossible…
What bothers me though is that the Red Bull guys are all flying their planes in the US experimental category and still have flown in Rotterdam a few weeks ago. How they have done that beats me but I am surely interested to find out.
Regards,
Hans
RA3326K
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: zaterdag 16 augustus 2008 8:55
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: N registered Yak aircraft
Does anyone know if American registered Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang aircraft can keep their American registration outside the USA ?
It is possible for non American citizens to have a November registered aircraft outside the USA, if the plane is brought to a Trust Company. A very complex matter but absolutely legal and safe.
But I suppose that there are quite some restrictions. One such Trust Company that I’ve contacted says that it does not work for a Yak. If so, I’d liked to know why.
Jan Mevis
Yak 50 RA2005K
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: N registered Yak aircraft |
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I bet the same rule was in effect in 1972 and most likely somewhere in the ICAO accords. in 1972 all the World Acro teams that where in England that year were flying their national reregistered aircraft. After the competition, Mary Gaffeny and the female Russian team member wanted to trade rides, Mary to fly the Yak 18R and the Russian gal to fly Mary's Pitts. The Brits nicks it because neither aircraft were register in the UK and neither pilot had UK licenses. Some years before that while I worked for Bahamas Airways I was not allowed to fly Bahamian registered DC-3s because I didn't have UK rating. Shortly after that while I was based in Germany, I had to get a German private pilots license in order to fly the local flying club's SuperCub.
It makes sense to me.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/16/2008 6:53:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pa3arw(at)euronet.nl writes:
| Quote: |
Jan,
The trust thing only works for N-registered aircraft which fall in the normal registration category.
Planes like the Yaks, CJ’s and T28’s (i.e. all ex military) fall in the experimental category and are there for not allowed to fly outside the USA.
That is what I have been told by the FAA and our own officials. I would like to bring a T28 to Holland but have given up on that because of the registration thing. Finding a T28 in the normal category is merely impossible…
What bothers me though is that the Red Bull guys are all flying their planes in the US experimental category and still have flown in Rotterdam a few weeks ago. How they have done that beats me but I am surely interested to find out.
Regards,
Hans
RA3326K
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: zaterdag 16 augustus 2008 8:55
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: N registered Yak aircraft
Does anyone know if American registered Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang aircraft can keep their American registration outside the USA ?
It is possible for non American citizens to have a November registered aircraft outside the USA, if the plane is brought to a Trust Company. A very complex matter but absolutely legal and safe.
But I suppose that there are quite some restrictions. One such Trust Company that I’ve contacted says that it does not work for a Yak. If so, I’d liked to know why.
Jan Mevis
Yak 50 RA2005K
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scott-p(at)texas.net
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: N registered Yak aircraft |
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Hans Oortman 1 wrote:
| Quote: |
Jan,
The trust thing only works for N-registered aircraft which fall in the
normal registration category.
Planes like the Yaks, CJ’s and T28’s (i.e. all ex military) fall in
the experimental category and are there for not allowed to fly outside
the USA.
That is what I have been told by the FAA and our own officials. I
would like to bring a T28 to Holland but have given up on that because
of the registration thing. Finding a T28 in the normal category is
merely impossible…
What bothers me though is that the Red Bull guys are all flying their
planes in the US experimental category and still have flown in
Rotterdam a few weeks ago. How they have done that beats me but I am
surely interested to find out.
Regards,
Hans
RA3326K
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Van:* owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *Namens *Jan Mevis
*Verzonden:* zaterdag 16 augustus 2008 8:55
*Aan:* yak-list(at)matronics.com
*Onderwerp:* N registered Yak aircraft
Does anyone know if American registered Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang
aircraft can keep their American registration outside the USA ?
It is possible for non American citizens to have a November registered
aircraft outside the USA, if the plane is brought to a Trust Company.
A very complex matter but absolutely legal and safe.
But I suppose that there are quite some restrictions. One such Trust
Company that I’ve contacted says that it does not work for a Yak. If
so, I’d liked to know why.
Jan Mevis
Yak 50 RA2005K
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Hi Jan and Hans,
|
You are right about the way the trust works.
As far as the Red Bull (and other aerobatic airplanes, e.g.,
US-registered planes at WAC or other competitions in Europe), these
airplanes aren't BASED in Europe, they are only flown there. The issue
is the address at which the airplane is registered. An Experimental
airplane which is US registered can FLY in a country outside the US IF
it has written permission from the aviation authority in that country,
but it is registered to an address in the US. The simplest case of this
is the following: Lets say I have a Yak 55 which I want to take to an
aerobatic contest in Canada. I write to Transport Canada (the aviation
authority for Canada) and obtain permission for the airplane to fly in
Canada, then I fly to Canada, hopefully win the contest and then come
back to my base in the US. We do the same thing every two years with the
US Aerobatic Team airplanes, which go over to the WAC--e.g., in 2007 it
was in Spain. In fact several of the planes were air-lifted to
Luxembourg, and then flown to Spain through France and then back to
Luxembourg after the WAC. So permission was obtained from Luxembourg,
Belgium, France, and Spain. I am certain that the Red Bull airplanes are
handled the same way, and are registered to a US citizen (or US Company)
in the US with a US address. There is no reason that a US citizen (or
US-held company) with a US address could not register an
Experimental-Exhibition airplane, obtain permission for it to fly in a
European country and fly it there for as long as the European country
would allow.
To answer Jan's original question, if a US citizen owns a US registered
Sukhoi or Yak, and takes it to Europe, and obtains permission for it to
fly there, it can (in fact it MUST) remain on the US registry and can
legally fly (since a US citizen wouldn't be allowed to register an
airplane in say Germany, nor could they fly it without a JAR pilot
certificate...). I know several high-level US aerobatic pilots who keep
airplanes in Europe for the purpose of flying in European contests
without having to ship the airplane over the pond. On the other hand, a
non-US citizen who isn't at least also a US resident and holder of a US
pilot certificate essentially can't register an airplane on the US
registry EVEN IF IT IS IN THE US.
This stuff is quite complex, but basically boils down to the citizenship
of the owner of the airplane determines where it is registered.
Hope this helps.
Scott Poehlmann
Yak 55M N155YK
Vice President, IAC
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
Ownership
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote][b]
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
Ownership
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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0123456789
[quote][b]
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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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Jan,
Yak 52/50 and I believe the Sukhois also are all on the EASA list, i.e. this means that in due time there will be a category in every JAA-country in which our planes will fit….w’ll just have to wait how those “office dudes” are going to implement this. It is all based upon so called “grand fathers” rights.
To the best of my knowledge, based upon information from EASA this also means that you can import a plane (any plane on that list) from the US and register it in one of the European countries in a kind of “normal” category…
W’ll have to wait and see what happens.
Hans
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: maandag 18 augustus 2008 22:23
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
[b]N Registered Yak aircraft[/b]
[b]Certification [/b]
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
[b]Ownership [/b]
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jan.mevis(at)informavia.be writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
Ownership
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type certificates and do not have the blessed “experimental” category that we are so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jan.mevis(at)informavia.be writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
Ownership
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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Doc,
Yes, we do have an experimental category in Holland as well as in Belgium and the rest of Europe for that matter….but…there is always a big “but” here:
It is a pure administrative thing, i.e. the definition of what falls or should fall into this category. I personally have had discussion with our “FAA” about the issue/possibility to register ex military aircraft into this category, it would make life a bit easier than the Russian registration.
This was 5 years ago and those civil guys (mainly lawyers) still haven’t figured it out…and it is so simple…….a matter of wording…but those civil dudes have still not found the right words and why should they…the longer they wait, the longer they have a job…..
Hans
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp MD
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type certificates and do not have the blessed “experimental” category that we are so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jan.mevis(at)informavia.be writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
[b]N Registered Yak aircraft[/b]
[b]Certification [/b]
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
[b]Ownership [/b]
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
|
|
That’s correct. Every Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang pilot in Europe would be thrilled having this freedom.
With the Russian register, we do have some possibilities in some countries because the Russian inspectors are serious, decent guys who are also very practical and don’t make fuzz about silly details. But I ‘m quite afraid that it won’t last for a long time anymore. Europe is becoming a hughe bureaucratic burden. One day they ‘ll even make rules about the colour of toilet paper.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type certificates and do not have the blessed “experimental” category that we are so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jan.mevis(at)informavia.be writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
Ownership
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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01 |
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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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|
Jan,
They already did that for the shape of bananas so why not for toilet paper??
Hans
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 8:52
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
That’s correct. Every Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang pilot in Europe would be thrilled having this freedom.
With the Russian register, we do have some possibilities in some countries because the Russian inspectors are serious, decent guys who are also very practical and don’t make fuzz about silly details. But I ‘m quite afraid that it won’t last for a long time anymore. Europe is becoming a hughe bureaucratic burden. One day they ‘ll even make rules about the colour of toilet paper.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type certificates and do not have the blessed “experimental” category that we are so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jan.mevis(at)informavia.be writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
[b]N Registered Yak aircraft[/b]
[b]Certification [/b]
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
[b]Ownership [/b]
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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01 |
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: N Registered Yak aircraft |
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And we thought we had it bad in the US! We just have tree huggers and Al Gore!
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:43 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
Jan,
They already did that for the shape of bananas so why not for toilet paper??
Hans
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 8:52
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
That’s correct. Every Yak, Sukhoi or Nanchang pilot in Europe would be thrilled having this freedom.
With the Russian register, we do have some possibilities in some countries because the Russian inspectors are serious, decent guys who are also very practical and don’t make fuzz about silly details. But I ‘m quite afraid that it won’t last for a long time anymore. Europe is becoming a hughe bureaucratic burden. One day they ‘ll even make rules about the colour of toilet paper.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp MD
Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 5:07
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: N Registered Yak aircraft
If not wrong, I think Jan is in Belgium. I think they are bound by type certificates and do not have the blessed “experimental” category that we are so blessed to have. We are very lucky as you know to be in the experimental show category.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:52 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N Registered Yak aircraft
NO! NO! NO! DON'T GO ASKING A TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR AN AIRCRAFT!!!! You have far more freedom with experimental certificates. I would not be pleased at all!!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/18/2008 4:24:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jan.mevis(at)informavia.be writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks Richard. So if I understand it well, we would be all pleased if the Russians would be so kind to provide a Type Certificate for our Yaks and Sukhois ? (And the Chinese for the Nanchang ?) Or is this already the case, but there simply are no bi-lateral agreements ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: maandag 18 augustus 2008 18:25
To: YAK USA LIST
Subject: N Registered Yak aircraft
N Registered Yak aircraft
Certification
Sadly, I have been forced to spend years delving into this whole issue of registrations, during the period were we had problems in Europe attempting to get legal registrations for Yaks and Sukhois. The essential position is:
- Only Type-Certificated aircraft can obtain Normal Category Certificates of Airworthiness.
- A Normal Category Certificate of Airworthiness is valid in any ICAO-Signatory country. Also the process of Type Certification tends to be controlled with bi-lateral agreements between countries, so, as a principle, an aircraft Type Certificated in one country will normally be accepted in another country relatively easy.
- The problem then occurs with Non-Certificated aircraft. As a practicality some 40% of aircraft in the UK are Non-Type Certificated, and I suspect that the figure is probably fairly similar in the US.
- Unfortunately there is no uniformity as to how individual countries handle Non-Certificated aircraft - indeed each country has total flexibility to do what it thinks is best.
- So Non-Certificated are allowed to fly in many countries with the paper being called "Experimental"; "Restricted"; "Permit to Fly" etc.
- A critical issue is then that the Airworthiness documents for a Non-Certificated aircraft are, by legal definition, ONLY valid in the country of issue.
- They can however be made valid in other countries by virtue of a "Over-Fly" Permission from the National Aviation Authority in the country over which the flying is occurring.
- Then, there is no uniformity as to what might be granted. For example the German LBA will give Annual "Over-Fly" Permission to Lithuanian Restricted Category aircraft such as Yak-52s etc. Conversely the UK will only give 30 days in total per annum for such aircraft.
- So, all Yaks and Sukhois in the US are not Type Certificated; are therefore registered in "Experimental", and therefore that registration is not valid outside the USA without Over-Fly Permission.
- For the Red Bull aircraft, you will find that they obtained Dutch Over-Fly Permission for them to compete in Rotterdam.
- An important point is that there is virtually no legislation PREVENTING Non-Certificated aircraft flying in most countries. The problem is, however, to convince the local NAA that they should give a form of Experimental / Restricted - in most cases they feel that is too much hassle and refuse!
Ownership
- A totally separate issue is that of Ownership. In principle, most countries legislate that only citizens / corporate entities of that country can register aircraft there. In the case of Europe, any European can own any aircraft registered in any other European country.
- In the US of course, an aircraft can be owned by a trust, and that trust can, I believe, be owned by a foreign National.
- Certainly in Europe it is not difficult for non-Europeans to set up companies only for the purpose of aircraft ownership, and then that company then becomes a Registered Owner.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
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