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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Personally measured  and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as  possible.

  

 Getting ready for my  first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to  take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am  glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far:

  

 In the UK I used  "regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my  UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with  any alcohol in it.

  

 I periodically  ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a  half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised  myself on that one.

  

 I bought new  "regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of  the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining  the sump before starting the engine.

  

 Much to my chagrin I  noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a  calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find  something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in  Wrightsville &York PA:

  

 Sam's Club Regular -  $3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol

 Rutter's  Premium - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5%  ethanol

 Turkey Hill Premium  - $3.75/gal - stated as 92 octane - tested as 0%  ethanol

  

 The Turkey Hill gas  is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill  regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is  ethanol free. At least for now.

  

 Now for an opinion -  contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my  short use of ethanol-laced regular (never flying) caused a breakdown of  rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the  drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination  (I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I  never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained  out.

  

 As stated throughout  - this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather  than opinion, and can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live  and loin, I always say...

  

  

 Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

  

   [quote][b]

kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

I agree Bob.  Not sure how others are getting away with ethanol but the fuel that 

started dissolving my tank was 10%.  My guess is the guys using car gas without 

issue have less than 1 or 2% ethanol, if any at all.



I'll stick with 100LL since ethanol free is impossible to find here in Michigan.  

Kevin Cozik

Series 6-7

914 turbo

Czech floats

Lansing MI

  



On Sun Aug 17 13:25 , 'Bob Brennan' <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> sent:



 	  Quote: 	
		  





Personally measured 

and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as 

possible.

Â 

Getting ready for my 

first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to 

take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am 

glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far:

Â 

In the UK I used 

"regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my 

UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with 

any alcohol in it.

Â 

I periodically 

ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a 

half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised 

myself on that one.

Â 

I bought new 

"regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of 

the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining 

the sump before starting the engine.

Â 

Much to my chagrin I 

noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a 

calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find 

something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in 

Wrightsville &York PA:

Â 

Sam's Club Regular - 

$3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol

Rutter's 

PremiumÂ - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5% 

ethanol

Turkey Hill Premium 

- $3.75/gal - stated asÂ 92 octane - tested as 0% 

ethanol

Â 

The Turkey Hill gas 

is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill 

regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is 

ethanol free. At least for now.

Â 

Now for an opinion - 

contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my 

short use of ethanol-laced regularÂ (never flying) caused a breakdown of 

rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the 

drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination 

(I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I 

never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained 

out.

Â 

As stated throughout 

- this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather 

than opinion, andÂ can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live 

and loin, I always say...

Â 

Â 

Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa

Â

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Guys, here's a dumb question, maybe. Short of just not flying, what is wrong

with burning a mixture of 1/2 ethanol fuel and 1/2 100LL? Half as much

ethanol and half as much low lead. How much low lead would a person have to

burn to really harm an engine? I am speaking of only the two cycle engines.



Frank Miles

K-lll w/ 582

Clarkston, Washington



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Only 6% ethanol over a few weeks has apparently played havoc with my fuel

system = very dark fuel and black specs in the sump. I would assume 3% or 2%

or even 1% would do the same, just over a longer time.



My current plan of attack is to find out where the "black" was coming from,

and that it stops while using 0% ethanol 93 octane fuel (it definitely

started with the first tankful with ethanol). I assume rubber, there are a

few rubber hoses in the fuel path. Then I need to find a substitute hosing

to replace what is damaged, something that will not fall apart in the

presence of ethanol: which may be inevitable as ethanol-free gets harder to

find.



In other words I don't think blending is the answer - for me, right now, the

answer is testing each purchase and researching how to be ethanol-safe,

which my 1991 Rotax + fuel system obviously is not.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

I'll answer your question with a question...  What's wrong with using a

mixture of say 3/4 washed gas to remove the ethanol and 1/4 100LL?  That way

you get a very low lead content fuel with no ethanol and an octane rating of

greater than 91.  



Someone mentioned on this thread that gas will absorb water...  They then

went on to describe something less than .05%.  After thinking on it a while

I've come up with three considerations.  1 the gas is only able to absorb a

very small limited amount of water where ethanol will dissolve and dilute in

any quantity of water. 2 the gas at your station probably is already

saturated with whatever water it can because most gasoline has travelled

through pipelines.  Water is used in pipelines to separate shipments of

petro shipments.  3. The ethanol you are washing out has more affinity for

water than gas. Therefore unless you use an ocean of water to clean your gas

the probability is you will actually remove the water content of the

gasoline.  For those reasons I have come to the conclusion that there is no

danger of saturating your gas with water by washing the ethanol out of it.

A worst case scenario is there will be less moisture in the fuel after

"washing" than before "washing".



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

chuckp

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Bethesda, MD

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Thanks, Bob,  for the facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland.  After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until  I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again!  I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further problems.    

   

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure!  Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing.  What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service?  

   

Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg.  We have a spring fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.  This is how I found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun!  Hope to see you there!  

   

Pops  

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447  

Flying and grinning since 1956 J  

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
Pops
Avid STOL N113P
Flying and grinning since 1956

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Thanks Pops!  

   

Real world experience is very helpful.  I have checked the dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about ethanol.  The same thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with ethanol.  

   

Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts.  

   

Randy  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe

 Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction  

  

   

Thanks, Bob,  for the facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland.  After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until  I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again!  I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further problems.    

   

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge   Rd near Dillsburg,  PA is also pure!  Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing.  What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service?  

   

Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville,  PA, near Dillsburg.  We have a spring fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.  This is how I found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun!  Hope to see you there!  

   

Pops  

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447  

Flying and grinning since 1956 J  

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_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

I've discussed this with a friend who used to own and operate an industrial

lab.  They regularly did testing of various fuels including flash tests.  He

told me that washing the gas is a good idea because it also removes any dust

and crud ( his word ) that may be in the gas.  I figure any other water

soluble additives would be replaced with the 25% 100LL.  The 100 LL will

eventually foul plugs etc but hopefully you will be past TBO before that

happens.  I figure 25% 100 LL will produce a 91 1/4 octane fuel.  Good for

either 912.  Probably ok for a 582 too.  Just check the main bearings for

plating at around 300 hr.  A fuel mix may not run as clean as unleaded MOGAS

but it will probably run smoother with less chance of vapour lock or

altitude induced evaporation.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Any one heading to Newfoundland there is no ethanol here at all.... Great float country!  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe

 Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:33 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction  

  

  

   

Thanks, Bob,  for the facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland.  After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until  I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again!  I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further problems.    

   

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure!  Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing.  What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service?  

   

Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg.  We have a spring fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.  This is how I found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun!  Hope to see you there!  

   

Pops  

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447  

Flying and grinning since 1956 J  

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Maybe someone  can comment on the following.

It is my understanding hat 92 octane auto fuel is essentially the same octane as 100 LL just a different way of rating it.  IE: ron/mon. If this is true, then mixing 100LL with 92 octane will not really raise the octane number. I do know it will raise the vapor pressure of auto fuel though.

Could it be that if 92 octane auto fuel was rated as aircraft fuel is it would be 100 octane?

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

http://www.tanknology.com/services_ethanol_prep.html:

 	  Quote: 	
		  When water does contaminate ethanol-blended gasoline, the water dissolves into the ethanol and disperses throughout the tank. Once it exceeds its maximum tolerance, the alcohol/water mixture will separate from the gasoline. Depending upon the actual conditions, up to 80 percent of the ethanol will separate from the gasoline, forming two separate layers in the tank: Gasoline on top of ethanol-rich water. The gasoline layer, because it has been stripped of most of the ethanol, will be lower in octane and most likely out of specification. The bottom layer, which is a mix of ethanol and water, simply wonâ€™t burn. 	




Wonder how much lower the octane rating is?

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Randy - I found "tygon" at Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/tygon.php but  it says "Ideal or[sic] hookup of airspeed pitot and  static lines (not recommended for pressurized applications). " Doesn't  sound like fuel line to me (?)

  

  Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy  Daughenbaugh

Sent: 18 August 2008 12:44 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Thanks  Pops! 

  

Real world experience  is very helpful.  I have checked the  dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels  of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but  still worry about ethanol.  The same  thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with  ethanol. 

  

Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts. 

  

Randy 

     

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe

Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03  AM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Thanks, Bob,  for the  facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems  until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in  Maryland.  After several in-flight engine  failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was  dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel  filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured  the problem for a while, until  I finally got smart and resolved never to  use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again!  I now carry an  ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my  tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further problems.    

  

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas  has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure  gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in  PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near  Dillsburg, PA is also pure!  Another one is the  Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland MD.  Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating  mandatory testing.  What we really need is a website similar to  gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers  can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys  willing to take on that great public service? 

  

Bob, we always make it a point to  attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg.  We have a spring  fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.  This is how I  found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and  fun!  Hope to see you there! 

  

Pops 

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax  447 

Flying and grinning since 1956  J 

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Thanks Chuck (Pops) for sharing your experiences so that  the rest of us can watch out for ethanol effects, and for the recommendation on  the Labor Day fly-in. I did my first hour of Airworthiness Cert mandatory test  flying today and have a few things to tweak but I hope to be legal and settled  in by then so maybe I'll see you there. Boy does my 582 rev high now on 92  octane no-ethanol, I need to learn not to push the throttle all  the way in!

  

  Bob Brennan -  N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck  Popenoe

Sent: 18 August 2008 12:03 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Thanks, Bob,  for the  facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems  until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in  Maryland.   After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the  conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened  polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and  changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until  I finally  got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft  again!  I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all  gas before filling my tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further  problems.   

  

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas  has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure  gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in  PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and  Ridge Rd near  Dillsburg,  PA is also pure!   Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland  MD. Other stations in  these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory  testing.  What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com  reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their  proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys willing to take on  that great public service? 

  

Bob, we always make it a point to  attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville,  PA, near Dillsburg.   We have a spring fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.   This is how I found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes,  ultralights, food and fun!  Hope to see you there! 

  

Pops 

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax  447 

Flying and grinning since 1956  J 

 

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Since ethanol is a lower octane rating than gasoline... and gasoline with 5% ethanol is rated as 93 octane (my measurement from a Rutter's station... it seems to me that the 95% gasoline in the mixture had to be higher octane for the mixture to be 93... so removing the ethanol should leave just *higher* octane gasoline. Shouldn't it??



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

---

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

>What we really need is a  website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure  gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any  of our guys willing to take on that great public  service?

  

 I will be testing other stations in my area and posting  the results but that information would only be good for that tank of gas.  If someone else posted where they got ethanol-free gas and I was nearby I would  certainly give it a try - but I would test it before using it just as I will now  even at stations that were previously ethanol-free. I asked the station  attendant at the Turkey Hill if the gas was ethanol-free since it didn't have  the ethanol warning label on the pumps. Her response was "ok yeah, I forgot to  put those stickers on..." So the more sources the better, in case some switch  over.

  

 One of the guys at the airport today said there is a  station in Lancaster that actually displays an Ethanol Free sign. Or maybe  they're just giving the crap (ethanol) away for free... 

  

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

 

 

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck  Popenoe

Sent: 18 August 2008 12:03 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Thanks, Bob,  for the  facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems  until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in  Maryland.   After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the  conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened  polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and  changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until  I finally  got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft  again!  I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all  gas before filling my tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further  problems.   

  

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas  has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure  gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in  PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and  Ridge Rd near  Dillsburg,  PA is also pure!   Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland  MD. Other stations in  these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory  testing.  What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com  reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their  proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys willing to take on  that great public service? 

  

Bob, we always make it a point to  attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville,  PA, near Dillsburg.   We have a spring fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.   This is how I found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes,  ultralights, food and fun!  Hope to see you there! 

  

Pops 

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax  447 

Flying and grinning since 1956  J 

 

[quote]



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[b]

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Bob,  

Doesn’t’ sound like fuel line to me either.  

   

Try the Bing alcohol resistant fuel line from ACS.  (P/N 05-00500)  I could be wrong, but I think it is a tygon formulation.  At any rate, I really like it.  (The blue Bing tubing that is.)  I would like to think though that the Bing tubing on my plane has not yet seen much, if any ethanol.  

   

Randy  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

 Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:23 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction  

  

   

Randy - I found "tygon" at Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/tygon.php but it says "Ideal or[sic] hookup of airspeed pitot and static lines (not recommended for pressurized applications). " Doesn't sound like fuel line to me (?)  

     

Bob Brennan  

    

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox  

    

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop  

    

Wrightsville Pa  

  

       

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

 Sent: 18 August 2008 12:44 pm

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction  

Thanks Pops!  

   

Real world experience is very helpful.  I have checked the dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about ethanol.  The same thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with ethanol.  

   

Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts.  

   

Randy  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe

 Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction  

  

   

Thanks, Bob,  for the facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland.  After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until  I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again!  I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further problems.    

   

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge   Rd near Dillsburg,  PA is also pure!  Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing.  What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service?  

   

Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville,  PA, near Dillsburg.  We have a spring fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.  This is how I found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun!  Hope to see you there!  

   

Pops  

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447  

Flying and grinning since 1956 J  

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       [quote][b]

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Ron,

Fuels are formulated differently in the winter than in the summer.  In the

winter, you want a higher vapor pressure to make the engine easier to start.

In the summer, a high vapor pressure can lead more easily to vapor lock.



The knock against ethanol is that it raises the vapor pressure of fuel.

Something you don't want as you go to higher altitudes.  



Randy  My home strip is 4400' elevation.



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

Excellent tip Randy - it is at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/bingfuel.php and  I will be ordering some to replace my ethanol-damaged hosing.  

  

 Follow-up: I checked my sump several times today, once  before each flight (5 or 6) and no more dark discoloration. There are still  black bits in the bottom of the sediment bowl, seemingly decreasing with each  test but still the reason to replace all rubber hose lines. I will check again  tomorrow morning after the (non-ethanol) fuel has sat in the hoses overnight.  Damn that ethanol!

  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville Pa

  



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy  Daughenbaugh

Sent: 18 August 2008 6:36 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Bob, 

Doesn’t’ sound like  fuel line to me either. 

  

Try the Bing alcohol  resistant fuel line from ACS.  (P/N  05-00500)  I could be wrong, but I  think it is a tygon formulation.  At any rate, I really like it.  (The blue Bing tubing that is.)  I would like to think though that the  Bing tubing on my plane has not yet seen much, if any  ethanol. 

  

Randy 

     

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:23  PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Randy - I found "tygon"  at Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/tygon.php but  it says "Ideal or[sic] hookup of airspeed pitot  and static lines (not recommended for pressurized applications).  " Doesn't sound like  fuel line to me (?) 

   

Bob  Brennan

  

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

  

Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

  

Wrightsville Pa

 

    

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

Sent: 18 August 2008 12:44 pm

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction 

Thanks  Pops! 

  

Real world experience  is very helpful.  I have checked the  dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels  of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about  ethanol.  The same thing can happen  to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with  ethanol. 

  

Also, thanks to Espuny  for educational posts. 

  

Randy 

     

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe

Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03  AM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Ethanol - facts  and no myths or fiction

 

  

Thanks, Bob,  for the  facts!  I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems  until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in  Maryland.  After several in-flight engine  failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was  dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel  filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured  the problem for a while, until  I finally got smart and resolved never to  use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again!  I now carry an  ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my  tanks.  Since then I’ve had no further problems.    

  

Now, getting the uncontaminated gas  has become the problem du jour.  Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure  gas availability.  Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in  PA.  I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near  Dillsburg, PA is also pure!  Another one is the  Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown  Cumberland MD.  Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating  mandatory testing.  What we really need is a website similar to  gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers  can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries.  Any of our guys  willing to take on that great public service? 

  

Bob, we always make it a point to  attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg.  We have a spring  fly-in on Father’s Day in June, and another on Labor Day.  This is how I  found the above  Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and  fun!  Hope to see you there! 

  

Pops 

Avid N113P STOL, Rotax  447 

Flying and grinning since 1956  J 

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction

I have been told 87 not sure whether that is RON or MON



About the water/eth it will not burn... unless you distil it again.  Espuny could do that and burn the recovered eth in his car in effect lowering the cost of his flying fuel.  It's been a long time since I distilled alcohol ( all the way back to high school) but I think it distils at 80C, standard pressure.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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