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Certification

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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Certification

Certification  

  

 This is not a simple issue, and to respond  to recent postings:

  

 Type Certificates are not something that can  be "provided".  You need to start with an aeroplane that has been designed  according to a design code to obtain Type Certification, and, effectively, it is  impossible to do this retrospectively.  

  

 In terms of the popular Russian light  aircraft, the 50/52/55 were designed to a very high standard, but a military  design code.  

  

 The 18T was designed to a Russian civil  design code - but with which there are no comparable codes in the West.   

  

 The US has FAR 23, and Europe has had JAR  23, which are almost identical.   Following these, some ten years ago,  Russia established AR 23, which is paragraph for paragraph the same, although in  some areas, the Russian standard in more demanding. 

  

 HOWEVER, given the lack of bilateral  agreements between Russia and the West, the Russian Type Certification is not  automatically accepted in the West.   

  

 Also, the cost within Russia of obtaining  Type Certification is so big  that it effectively deters anyone from  undertaking it.  

  

 However the Su-29 and 31; Yak-54 have  obtained AR 23 Full Certification.  

  

 In Western countries, Lithuania has gone  through a process of Type Certification for Yak-54, and Hungary has Type  Certificated the Sukhois and the Yak-18T.   The view of EASA has been  that Hungarian certifications were not sufficiently thorough for EASA to  automatically accept them, but EASA felt that the Sukhois / Yak-54 / 18T were  all aeroplanes that should be Type Certificated, and therefore proposed a "short  cut" certification process to go from the historical Russian code (for 18T) and  AR 23, (for Sukhois and Yak-54).    EASA emphasised that this  would be a genuine short cut; would be genuinely cheap; most of the work would  be done by themselves.   However none of the Russians would agree to  cooperate and provide the data/flight test reports etc that would be  needed.  

  

 Very fortunately EASA took a very sensible  view and did not, as they could have, relegate all these aeroplanes into "Annexe  2" (see below), and on an initial basis have given them EASA "Permits to  Fly".  

  

 The practicality is that these planes can  fly without effective restrictions throughout Europe; be maintained anywhere  within Europe etc.  

  

 It is now the intension of EASA to change  from Permits to Fly (which had always been intended as a temporary category)  into long term Restricted Certificates of Airworthiness.  Hopefully this  process will begin in the next few months.  

  

 Hans Oortman is wrong to say that Yak-52 and  50 are "on the EASA list".  Sure they are on an EASA list - which is their  Annexe 2.    Annexe 2 is for aircraft that are NOT in the  jurisdiction of EASA, and this includes a huge spectrum of aircraft such as  Home-built; Warbirds; aircraft produced before Type Certified standards AND  Yak-50 and 52.  

  

 The whole point of Annexe 2 is that these  aeroplanes are not the responsibility of EASA, but are handled by the local  National Aviation Authority in each country.    Fortunately as we  know only to well, there is no uniformity amongst European countries as to how  this should be handled.  

  

 So, if it is a type that currently gets an  EASA "Permit to Fly" like a Sukhoi/18T etc, no problem to bring one into  Europe.  

  

 If not, today you have the possibility of  Russian registration, or you have a Restricted Certificate from another country,  coupled with a "Over-Fly" Permission from your own, or you try to get it  accepted by your own NAA! 

  

 Hope that this helps. 

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm  

Lyonshall

Herefordshire

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom

  

 Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120

Fax: +44 (0)  1544 340 129 

www.russianaeros.com



   [quote][b]

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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Certification

It is the Annexe 2 list which I meant…   

I have been told by our CAA that eventually, what ever that means, we will have a category ( the legal term I believe is because of grandfathers rights…) in Holland where those aircraft will fit….the problem is…nobody told us when….  

   

Hans  

         

  

Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Richard Goode

 Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 2008 17:19

 Aan: YAK USA LIST

 Onderwerp: Certification   

  

     

[b]Certification [/b]  

    

   

    

This is not a simple issue, and to respond to recent postings:  

    

   

    

Type Certificates are not something that can be "provided".  You need to start with an aeroplane that has been designed according to a design code to obtain Type Certification, and, effectively, it is impossible to do this retrospectively.    

    

   

    

In terms of the popular Russian light aircraft, the 50/52/55 were designed to a very high standard, but a military design code.    

    

   

    

The 18T was designed to a Russian civil design code - but with which there are no comparable codes in the West.    

    

   

    

The US has FAR 23, and Europe has had JAR 23, which are almost identical.   Following these, some ten years ago, Russia established AR 23, which is paragraph for paragraph the same, although in some areas, the Russian standard in more demanding.   

    

   

    

HOWEVER, given the lack of bilateral agreements between Russia and the West, the Russian Type Certification is not automatically accepted in the West.     

    

   

    

Also, the cost within Russia of obtaining Type Certification is so big  that it effectively deters anyone from undertaking it.    

    

   

    

However the Su-29 and 31; Yak-54 have obtained AR 23 Full Certification.    

    

   

    

In Western countries, Lithuania has gone through a process of Type Certification for Yak-54, and Hungary has Type Certificated the Sukhois and the Yak-18T.   The view of EASA has been that Hungarian certifications were not sufficiently thorough for EASA to automatically accept them, but EASA felt that the Sukhois / Yak-54 / 18T were all aeroplanes that should be Type Certificated, and therefore proposed a "short cut" certification process to go from the historical Russian code (for 18T) and AR 23, (for Sukhois and Yak-54).    EASA emphasised that this would be a genuine short cut; would be genuinely cheap; most of the work would be done by themselves.   However none of the Russians would agree to cooperate and provide the data/flight test reports etc that would be needed.    

    

   

    

Very fortunately EASA took a very sensible view and did not, as they could have, relegate all these aeroplanes into "Annexe 2" (see below), and on an initial basis have given them EASA "Permits to Fly".    

    

   

    

The practicality is that these planes can fly without effective restrictions throughout Europe; be maintained anywhere within Europe etc.    

    

   

    

It is now the intension of EASA to change from Permits to Fly (which had always been intended as a temporary category) into long term Restricted Certificates of Airworthiness.  Hopefully this process will begin in the next few months.    

    

   

    

Hans Oortman is wrong to say that Yak-52 and 50 are "on the EASA list".  Sure they are on an EASA list - which is their Annexe 2.    Annexe 2 is for aircraft that are NOT in the jurisdiction of EASA, and this includes a huge spectrum of aircraft such as Home-built; Warbirds; aircraft produced before Type Certified standards AND Yak-50 and 52.    

    

   

    

The whole point of Annexe 2 is that these aeroplanes are not the responsibility of EASA, but are handled by the local National Aviation Authority in each country.    Fortunately as we know only to well, there is no uniformity amongst European countries as to how this should be handled.    

    

   

    

So, if it is a type that currently gets an EASA "Permit to Fly" like a Sukhoi/18T etc, no problem to bring one into Europe.    

    

   

    

If not, today you have the possibility of Russian registration, or you have a Restricted Certificate from another country, coupled with a "Over-Fly" Permission from your own, or you try to get it accepted by your own NAA!   

    

   

    

Hope that this helps.   

    

   

    

Richard Goode Aerobatics 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall

 Herefordshire

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom  

    

   

    

Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120

 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129 

 www.russianaeros.com  

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        [quote][b]

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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: Certification

Hans-the problem with Annexe 2 is that EASA  has no involvment with it,so the individual NAA's can make whatever rules they  like in each country,and it is much easier to say "no" than it is to take the  responsibility of allowing strange aircraft to fly!

 Richard

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5  3LW

United Kingdom

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544  340129

www.russianaeros.com



 [quote]   ---

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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: Certification

Richard,  

   

I understand your point. As fars as my intel is concerned the idea is (for Holland that is…) to allow ex warbirds including Yaks, Sukhois etc to register in the experimental class where by they will impose a maximum number of flight hours of 100 per year and maintenance should be done by authorized technicians for those specific planes. But this is 8 months ago, I don’t know what the latest status is. Quite frankly I have given up on this matter, at the moment there are about 6 Yaks flying here. If they want to ground those w’ll see what happens. By that time I will have left Netherlands already…I am fed up with it.  

   

I hear what you say…civil employees don’t like to take responsibilities and certainly not here.  

   

Fly safe!  

     

Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.  

CEO  

STN BV  

        

  

Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Richard Goode

 Verzonden: woensdag 20 augustus 2008 9:54

 Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Onderwerp: Re: Yak-List: Certification  

  

     

Hans-the problem with Annexe 2 is that EASA has no involvment with it,so the individual NAA's can make whatever rules they like in each country,and it is much easier to say "no" than it is to take the responsibility of allowing strange aircraft to fly!  

    

Richard  

    

   

    

Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom  

    

   

    

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com  

  [quote]    

---

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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: Certification

Hans,

 If you're planning on leaving Holland, you're always welcome  here in the US.  Bring your Yak.  There is always room for one more  (as my mom always said).

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Certification

I live on an airpark NW of Daytona Beach.  Half of our residents are  foreign 

nationals.  English with the exception of one German.  On  the field is a DH 

Moth on floats, Chipmunk (very original) and a  Jungmiester.  We see most of 

them (the foreigners) during the cold months,  but they are more welcome than 

most.

 

Two mile to the SW is a another private field.  4 mile to the NW is  another 

airpark with a hard surface runway.  5NE is another private  strip.  8 miles E 

is another private strip.  All these are active  fields.

 

I am willing to bet you will not find that anyplace in the world.

 

 

In a message dated 8/20/2008 7:49:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  

dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net writes:



Hans,

If you're planning on leaving Holland, you're always welcome  here in the US. 

 Bring your Yak.  There is always room for one more  (as my mom always said)

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randmyak52(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Certification

Sounds like you should move Pappy, too damn much  traffic!

  

                                                                                              Lefty

 [quote]   ---

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