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[Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

The very fact that $5 - 10K enters your mind as expendable says you've 

got way too much money and too little time

or ambition to "build a 750".  The very best of a Zenith project, 701 or 

750 is the complete build process. 

The ability to waste that kind of a difference implies you'd probably 

hire someone to do the work too.  The whole

process, a plans-build would net you a great 750 for $40% of that $99K 

or nearer 50% as a kit build.

Give yourself a break, grow and enjoy the process.  Otherwise, wait for 

a used one and buy it for a lot less

than $99K.  You could use a Corvair or Subaru to reduce that by a larger 

margin. Simple gages with a GPS

are practical too. I'd say forget quick-build, be a builder and then go 

fly with the friends you've made

along the way. What's to debate?



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



flicka750 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The debate continues. Some say the ch701 is not x-country, but people do it.



 Some say that the 701 can't support a O-200, but they're out there, I have seen them.



 The 750 is going to cost considerably more, and there still is little known information.



 How about a real debate guys??



 Is it really worth throwing away an extra $5-10K?? If so what do you get?



 AMD is talking about offering a Ch-750 for $99k, which is going to becoming very close to kit-cost if you do QB, with nice panel.



 How about a real debate, and some real information??





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199540#199540

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

I think the debate is about the difference between the 750 & 701. You say your a 601 builder. To you there is no debate, but you clearly have no intention of buying a 701 class machine, as your already happy with your 601 low-wing.



I have completed my rudder, and I have ordered the 750 plans. The back order right now for the 701 is into late for the year for a std-build. At this point in time, you might get a 750 wing by xmas, the rest is not clear. I was told not to expect my 750 plans until November, and I ordered it a month ago.



Too me there is a ton of things to debate about, and until I see the 750 plans I really don't know anything.



I think there are a lot of people right now where I'm at, and some haven't even yet bought the rudder or finished it. We just found out three weeks the rudder was the same.



I was told back in June 2008 by Zenith that back-orders for 701 were out past oct2008, because they were all going to Europe. I was told that post Oshkosh it would be anyone's guess how far the back-order is out. Like the person who bought the floats a year ago, and was told may-08, and still hasn't seen them, there factors that must be put into the debate and analysis.



The whole point of building is save money, and know the plane was well built. The mention of the AMD-750 was that for $99k you could get a complete well built plane, the comment was that a normal panel and new O-200 and your looking at over $60k for a 750, if you throw in quick-build then your look real close to $70k. Getting real close to just buying a full STC'd plane.



I think there is a lot to debate about, and I don't see the debate taking place.



What I know is that today I can order a 701 full kit for around $13k, and put up 1/2 in cash up front, most likely get the kit by xmas.



For the 750 at best its going to be piece-meal for a year, and we still don't know if the FAA as and/or will certify the 750, we know the 701 is grand-fathered.



There are a lot of issues.



Teledyne now as a LSA O-200 that might be light enough for the 701, if that is true then there may be no real reason for the 750 if all you want is a real airplane engine.



There is a lot to debate about, at this point we really we know nothing.



The debate allows us all to share information, so we can make a decision. Putting out $40k MIN, cash should require a decision? Right?



There's a lot to think about. Order a 701 and you know what your going to pay, and you'll probably get the kit by xmas, probably.



Order a 750, and you might get the plans by xmas, and might get the wings by new-year, and the rest is a complete mystery. There is a lot to think about.



I still only see one reason for me to go with the 750, and that is to get a O-200 class 'real airplane engine'.



I have seen lots of O-200's in 701's, but they're hand-start to keep the weight-down. I don't want to be hand-starting airplane in the mud where I live.

 	  larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: 	
		  The very fact that $5 - 10K enters your mind as expendable says you've 

got way too much money and too little time

or ambition to "build a 750".  The very best of a Zenith project, 701 or 

750 is the complete build process. 

The ability to waste that kind of a difference implies you'd probably 

hire someone to do the work too.  The whole

process, a plans-build would net you a great 750 for $40% of that $99K 

or nearer 50% as a kit build.

Give yourself a break, grow and enjoy the process.  Otherwise, wait for 

a used one and buy it for a lot less

than $99K.  You could use a Corvair or Subaru to reduce that by a larger 

margin. Simple gages with a GPS

are practical too. I'd say forget quick-build, be a builder and then go 

fly with the friends you've made

along the way. What's to debate?



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



flicka750 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The debate continues. Some say the ch701 is not x-country, but people do it.



 Some say that the 701 can't support a O-200, but they're out there, I have seen them.



 The 750 is going to cost considerably more, and there still is little known information.



 How about a real debate guys??



 Is it really worth throwing away an extra $5-10K?? If so what do you get?



 AMD is talking about offering a Ch-750 for $99k, which is going to becoming very close to kit-cost if you do QB, with nice panel.



 How about a real debate, and some real information??





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199540#199540

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

OK, I'll bite.

Debate what? We have 3 awesome Zenith STOL machines to choose from, pick the one you like the most for your own reasons.



Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

Chris Lewis

Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Seattle

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ch-750 versus Ch-701

I'll jump into this since I've been dealing with this debate for some time - as a Chris H. - approved builder of a 110% 701 that's designed to 1320# and for Corvair power.



I've also ordered the 750 plans to compare to my approved mark-ups. I'm slowly scratch building and may switch over to the "real" 750 or I may stay with my hybrid and adopt some of the features of the 750 which has many, many improvements over the 701. 



I started down my path because at 6'-4" and 240 pounds, I had to take the cushions out of the factory demonstrator to go for a ride with Roger. It was COZY to say the least and Roger's not a big guy. Also - having my knees in the panel was not fun or safe.



The 750 is perfect for guys like me. Like Tommy, I'm enjoying the process, the skills I'm picking up and the people I've met along the way (and I have a long way to go - but am in no hurry). The 701 just wouldn't have worked for me and I'd have been left out of this hobby.



I believe that Zenith got enough comments and efforts from guys like me to make a go of this and when I spoke with Sebastian about this at the open house, he says that Zenith sees a market for both planes for all of the reasons stated above and previously.



In a hurry? Buy a built plane or stalled-progress kit. Got some time? It only keeps getting better. If you've seen the 750 in person, you'll know what I mean. It is really the pinnacle of this series and well worth waiting for for guys like me.



Something for everyone.



Enjoy!



Chris in Seattle

_________________
750/ Zen-vair Semi-Scratch Builder
N750XT (reserved)

kenryan(at)alaska.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

I'm thinking that the 701 with the 914 Rotax would be right for me. I would 

like to know more about what's involved in raising the gross weight to 1320. 

What did requirements did Chris H. put on you to raise the gross to 1320?



On 20 Aug 2008 at 15:48, Chris Lewis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'll jump into this since I've been dealing with this debate for some time

 - as a Chris H. - approved builder of a 110% 701 that's designed to 1320#

 and for Corvair power.


	




-- 

Ken Ryan

http://kenryan.com

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, 

and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein-

Chris Lewis

Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Seattle

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

Ken - Chris Heintz did not specifically put any "requirements" on me.  I spent considerable time reviewing the STOL designs and proposing 2 pages of changes based upon what I saw in the 801 structure and after talking to several builders and riding in a few 701's - including the factory demonstrator.



Some changes were obvious - 601 firewall to simplify my Corvair installation, replacement of .016 to .020 throughout. I needed about 10% more cabin room, so changes were made there. I added about 10% to the wing and tail dimensions (was surprised to see the 701 rudder on the 750).



Other changes were related to 801 spar structures, none of which seemed to show up in the 750. My plan includes streamline struts, the 801 style flaperon mechanism that did show up in the 750 and the changed seat structure and extra side windows that also showed up in the 750. 



I'm not psychic, but these were obvious improvements from the 701 to the 801 that should have been in anyone's "improved" version. I was pleased to see the rounded corner extrusion as I have spent considerable time and effort trying to come up with this look to avoid the outside corners on the 701 and the expensive .093 inside corners on the 801. Not sure if I'll break down and buy the new extrusion or stick to my own work-around.



I was pleasantly surprised by the new instrument panel in the 750. This improves forward visibility dramatically at high AOA.



The downside for anyone else trying this approach is that Chris has stopped doing design review on major changes and you might have a problem with your DAR without the signed letter that I have, but I'm not an expert there.



Chris in Seattle

_________________
750/ Zen-vair Semi-Scratch Builder
N750XT (reserved)

kenryan(at)alaska.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

Chris,



Wow! Now I understand what you meant when you 

referred to your 110% 701. You are really building 

a whole new airplane. Good luck with the project. 



It sounds like you have given it a lot of thought and 

hats off for getting a signed letter of approval. I can 

fully appreciate that Chris would not be eager to be 

doing a lot of plan review.



My thought is that the 701 is great as is, but would be 

nearly perfect with a gross weight of 1250. So what I'm 

really doing is fishing for information regarding the 

feasability of upping the gross weight to 1250. Any 

thoughts, comments, and suggestions would be welcome 

from anyone.



Thanks,



Ken Ryan

Contemplating everything Zenith



On 27 Aug 2008 at 15:18, Chris Lewis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ken - Chris Heintz did not specifically put any "requirements" on me.  I spent considerable time reviewing the STOL designs and proposing 2 pages of changes based upon what I saw in the 801 structure and after talking to several builders and riding in a few 701's - including the factory demonstrator.

 

 Some changes were obvious - 601 firewall to simplify my Corvair installation, replacement of .016 to .020 throughout. I needed about 10% more cabin room, so changes were made there. I added about 10% to the wing and tail dimensions (was surprised to see the 701 rudder on the 750).

 

 Other changes were related to 801 spar structures, none of which seemed to show up in the 750. My plan includes streamline struts, the 801 style flaperon mechanism that did show up in the 750 and the changed seat structure and extra side windows that also showed up in the 750. 

 

 I'm not psychic, but these were obvious improvements from the 701 to the 801 that should have been in anyone's "improved" version. I was pleased to see the rounded corner extrusion as I have spent considerable time and effort trying to come up with this look to avoid the outside corners on the 701 and the expensive .093 inside corners on the 801. Not sure if I'll break down and buy the new extrusion or stick to my own work-around.

 

 I was pleasantly surprised by the new instrument panel in the 750. This improves forward visibility dramatically at high AOA.

 

 The downside for anyone else trying this approach is that Chris has stopped doing design review on major changes and you might have a problem with your DAR without the signed letter that I have, but I'm not an expert there.

 

 Chris in Seattle

 

 --------

 701 Scratch Builder

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1014#201014

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ch-750 versus Ch-701 [ Missing link 110% ]

I think this is what I'm looking for is documentation on putting a xl-601 fwf on a 701, for the O-200. Is this 110% 701 documented anywhere for change control?? Given that Heintz doesn't do this 'consulting' anymore, but has done this for this case, there must be autocad docs or pdf's somewhere floating around??? It's obvious that its being done.



I hear you, post xmas when I get my '750 plans' then I'll know more, right now all I have is my 701 plans. I really want to do a O-200, with a starter, and the lightest engine I have seen is 215LB's. 



I suspect that the 750 is a whole new plane. Currently as has been shown we know nothing. Just have to wait for the plans.



In the meantime I would like to find the plans for the 110% conversion, e.g. putting the xl-601 firewall on a 701.



 	  Chris Lewis wrote: 	
		  I'll jump into this since I've been dealing with this debate for some time - as a Chris H. - approved builder of a 110% 701 that's designed to 1320# and for Corvair power.



I've also ordered the 750 plans to compare to my approved mark-ups. I'm slowly scratch building and may switch over to the "real" 750 or I may stay with my hybrid and adopt some of the features of the 750 which has many, many improvements over the 701. 



I started down my path because at 6'-4" and 240 pounds, I had to take the cushions out of the factory demonstrator to go for a ride with Roger. It was COZY to say the least and Roger's not a big guy. Also - having my knees in the panel was not fun or safe.



The 750 is perfect for guys like me. Like Tommy, I'm enjoying the process, the skills I'm picking up and the people I've met along the way (and I have a long way to go - but am in no hurry). The 701 just wouldn't have worked for me and I'd have been left out of this hobby.



I believe that Zenith got enough comments and efforts from guys like me to make a go of this and when I spoke with Sebastian about this at the open house, he says that Zenith sees a market for both planes for all of the reasons stated above and previously.



In a hurry? Buy a built plane or stalled-progress kit. Got some time? It only keeps getting better. If you've seen the 750 in person, you'll know what I mean. It is really the pinnacle of this series and well worth waiting for for guys like me.



Something for everyone.



Enjoy!



Chris in Seattle

_________________
flicka750(AT)gmail
EINSTEIN:"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18" - Out of My Later Years
TWAIN: "Intercourse is life's most over-rated pleasure, defecation is life's most under-rated pleasure" - Letter's From Earth

Chris Lewis

Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Seattle

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

The only "documentation" that I know of is the official CH750 plans. My changes are a one-off and not something that I'll share with anyone. My plane, my a$$ on the line, no one else's...



I'd suggest that you do what I've done, 4 times now - Get your butt on a commercial flight, rent a car and go meet these people. Sit in the planes, talk to Roger and Sebastian and Caleb and Michael and then get back to us when you know what's what.



We all trust "Uncle H." because we are building his planes. If you don't trust him (or his family), take your business somewhere else. And give us a break from your non-stop whining. We're here to support each other, not tear people or products down.



Chris in Seattle

_________________
750/ Zen-vair Semi-Scratch Builder
N750XT (reserved)

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

My butt will never go Mexico, MO, I have no need to waste my time and see those people. If the 'brood' of Uncle-Heintz, cannot publicly document the mythical 110% 701, then it doesn't exist.



The assumption was that somebody here knew how to put an XL-601 firewall forward on a 701, and its now clear that nobody knows how its done.



I have ordered my CH750 plans months ago, sometime post xmas I'll be getting them.



Like everything else on this site, the 110% 701 is pure malarkey hot air, false advertising and mythology.



It's very clear that Uncle Heintz no longer does consulting or advising for modifications to his plans. It's clear that his brood are not engineers. I'm really not quite clear why anyone needs to go to OZ ( mexico, MO ) to meet the wizard, when in fact the wizard has retired.



Let's all hope that Zenith survives. Demanding peoples money 50% in advance with no time commitments on delivery is a ripe recipe for bankruptcy should the economy for these kit planes ever take a dive.



In the old days your 'one off plans' would have been approved by uncle-heintz, and theyafter avail to all, given that uncle no longer approves that means your plans are un-approved. Thus they're not plans, just wishes. Perhaps once your 110% is flying you can sell plans and start a new company competing with zenith?



 	  Chris Lewis wrote: 	
		  The only "documentation" that I know of is the official CH750 plans. My changes are a one-off and not something that I'll share with anyone. My plane, my a$$ on the line, no one else's...



I'd suggest that you do what I've done, 4 times now - Get your butt on a commercial flight, rent a car and go meet these people. Sit in the planes, talk to Roger and Sebastian and Caleb and Michael and then get back to us when you know what's what.



We all trust "Uncle H." because we are building his planes. If you don't trust him (or his family), take your business somewhere else. And give us a break from your non-stop whining. We're here to support each other, not tear people or products down.



Chris in Seattle

Al Hays

Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Gore, VA

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

Guys,



This "Flicka" person seems to be an Internet Troll.  It does us no  

good to continue trying to help or answer its questions.  Please  

don't feed the troll.  And please -  Do Not Archive.



Al Hays

N701GH reserved



On Sep 3, 2008, at 5:57 PM, flicka750 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <flicka750(at)gmail.com>



 My butt will never go Mexico, MO,

Joe Kidd

Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 15
Location: TN

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

Well Flicka your rudeness and lack of ability to conduct research is apparant as at no time has anyone ever said that there was a 601 firewall foreward for the 701. Experimental aircraft means that you sometimes have to fab up your own stuff if it is not otherwise avaliable.

 You though have baited and mocked everything you could while refusing to do your own work mewing and crying foul at every step. I'll make this simple for you, buy your 750 kit, build your plane, if you can, and stop squaling about something than doesn't mean anything. Oh and by the way "the brood of Uncle Heinz" are also the folks your talking about buying the 750 kit from so you again prove yourself to be a hypocrite.

  

 Joe

 

 ---

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] Ch-750 versus Ch-701

If you guys would quit responding or talking to or about him, he would 

go away.  He is "blacklisted".  Larry, N1345L



Joe Stevenson wrote:

[quote] Well Flicka your rudeness and lack of ability to conduct research is apparant as at no time has anyone ever said that there was a 601 firewall foreward for the 701. Experimental aircraft means that you sometimes have to fab up your own stuff if it is not otherwise avaliable.

 You though have baited and mocked everything you could while refusing to do your own work mewing and crying foul at every step. I'll make this simple for you, buy your 750 kit, build your plane, if you can, and stop squaling about something than doesn't mean anything. Oh and by the way "the brood of Uncle Heinz" are also the folks your talking about buying the 750 kit from so you again prove yourself to be a hypocrite.



 Joe

 ---

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