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"Heavy" wing on Series 7
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: FlyboyTR [flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net]

 Shortening or "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out on the left wing

 and create more lift on that side.


	


My understanding is that "Increasing the wash-out" means: make the AoA at the tip of the wing lesser than at the root thus ensuring that the root stalls before the tip. Hence ... reducing the lift on that side, right?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded. 

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

Remember when you guys added that little 1/2"(or more) block of wood  

under the rear of the wing when you built them? That was to build in  

washout, so I can't see how pulling on the front of the strut will  

decrease the washout, rather it seems to me that shortening the front  

spar (screwing the rod-end in) will INCREASE washout.....doesn't it?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

On Aug 23, 2008, at 9:18 AM, FlyboyTR wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 darinh wrote:

>  I think a turn or so in on the right front strut will to the  

> trick.  As John stated, it is better to increase wash-out than  

> wash-in.  Thanks for all the input.

 Darin,

 Unless my mind is a little twisted this morning, "turning in" the  

 right front will decrease the wash out in the right wing.   

 Shortening or "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out  

 on the left wing and create more lift on that side.



 Travis   



 --------

 Travis Rayner

 Mobile, AL

 Skystar Vixen, N-789DF

 Continental IO-240,  Prince P-Tip Prop

 ADI-II Autopilot

 AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0070#200070

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

Right on!



Jan



---

RockyRim

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Austin, Texas

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Re: "Heavy" wing on series 7

Hey Darin,



I had a heavy left wing on my Series 7 when I began flight testing.  I'll skip a lot of what I did and go right to what the fix was.  

I pulled the tips,and re-checked the washout with the  "smart level".  

As good as I thought I had it at set up, it was in a garage, and it needed just a hair for perfect.

And then a hair more for exactly level flight, hands off.  

If you don't have a smart level, find one.  If you can't find one, I'll loan you mine.



Good Luck,

Denise and Rocky Whitman

co-builders and pilots

Series 7 912S

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: Re:

Travis,



I may be wrong but the way I understand it is wash-out is a slight twist in the wing that essentially decreases the angle of incedence of the wing as you move from the root to the tip.  This is to allow a stall to originate at the root and travel to the tip thus keeping the outward section of the wing flying at lower speeds.  So, to adjust a wing strut for more washout, you would either turn in the front rod bearing (pulling the LE down) or turn out the rear rod bearings (raising the TE).



Basically wash-out in a wing places the outboard trailing edge slightly higher than the outboard leading edge in respect to the LE and TE at the root of the wing.  Man, I have never tried to put that in words before and it is a bit difficult to explain.



Here it is in the word or Roy Vaillancourt (World famous RC modeler and kit designer):



Washout works like this: If a wing panel is twisted so that the trailing edge of the tip rib is slightly higher then the trailing edge of the root rib this will in effect reduce the angle of attack of the tip ribs. If this twist is gradual from the root of the panel to the tip each rib in this panel will progressively have a reduced angle of attack. This means that in flight as the airflow approaches the tip of the wing the tip ribs will stall later then the ribs closer to the root. This is good, as this will prevent "tip stall" at slower speeds when the angle of attack is generally higher then normal flight. This will help prevent the plane from snap rolling when you least want it. Like on landing approaches and slow fly-bys.



I think that is essentially what I said, just not so nicely.  Let me know if I am in error here.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re:

Michel,



That is the way I understand it also.  You did a much, much better job than I explaining it though....Are you sure English is not your first language? 



Rocky,



I do have a smart level...but thanks for the offer to borrow yours.  I am going out tonight to do exactly what you recommend.  My roll is so slight I suspect it will only take a half to 1 turn to remedy it.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Last edited by darinh on Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

Sounds pretty good to me.  Well stated.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 393+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

FlyboyTR

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Re:

Well....???  The sad thing is I know what wash out is and what it does!  I just had this reverse image in my mind.     Thanks guys I stand corrected.  Yep...Wash out is up!...so the wing tips will stall last.  



If ya'll will excuse me...I will now slink away and have my crow for dinner...always best served cold with a glass of vinegar!  



Thanks again for correcting me...sincerely appreciated.



Travis    



PS...and that was a great explanation of the facts!

_________________
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
www.enotam.net (My Flying Info Website)

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: darinh [gerns25(at)netscape.net]

 That is the way I understand it also.  You did a much, much better job than

 explaining it though....Are you sure English is not your first language? [Wink]


	


Darin, you make me blush so much that my new pacemaker stands out like a white spot on my chest! 



I went flying as a passenger with my son, yesterday. Again I tested carefuly the plane: slight pressure on the right pedal to keep the ball in the center, level flight and cruise speed. Release the stick ... the plane slowly moves nose up and bank right.



The thing is: the measured angles at root and tip are exactly symmetrical and I am not sure it would be wise to change the wash-out. As I wrote earlier, I had a small tab bent down on the root of the left flaperon and it helped but ... I lost it. I am thinking to put a new one but ... nobody commented that practice so, ... do you have any other suggestion, guys? Should I try a tab on the rudder instead?



The thing is; this is only a tiny problem when I fly alone (whenever or if I get back my license!) and I want for example open a bottle of water using both hands. Previously I pressed the stick with my right leg but it would feel better if I could fly hands free for a short while.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... official passenger.

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

Do you have *any* form of elevator trim control? Either a ground- 

bendable mechanical trim tab or servo-controlled trim tab? That would  

be a way to control the nose up movement, and a similar trim tab on  

the rudder would allow you to control the right banking tendency. If  

you have both of those, you'll be able to pull a cork from a bottle  

of wine with both hands AND cut the cheese as well. : )  (I'd wait  

until on the ground before consuming any of the wine, however)

The way I understand it, the ground-adjustable trim tabs only work at  

a specific airspeed...any faster or slower (within reason) than what  

you have set if for, and it doesn't correct as much, or it corrects  

too much....nothing very radical, just slight.

I can fly my plane hands off for several minutes at a time after  

setting the elevator trim (electric) if the wind isn't too great.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

On Aug 24, 2008, at 3:45 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: darinh [gerns25(at)netscape.net]

> That is the way I understand it also.  You did a much, much better  

> job than

> explaining it though....Are you sure English is not your first  

> language? [Wink]

 Darin, you make me blush so much that my new pacemaker stands out  

 like a white spot on my chest! 

 I went flying as a passenger with my son, yesterday. Again I tested  

 carefuly the plane: slight pressure on the right pedal to keep the  

 ball in the center, level flight and cruise speed. Release the  

 stick ... the plane slowly moves nose up and bank right.

 The thing is: the measured angles at root and tip are exactly  

 symmetrical and I am not sure it would be wise to change the wash- 

 out. As I wrote earlier, I had a small tab bent down on the root of  

 the left flaperon and it helped but ... I lost it. I am thinking to  

 put a new one but ... nobody commented that practice so, ... do you  

 have any other suggestion, guys? Should I try a tab on the rudder  

 instead?

 The thing is; this is only a tiny problem when I fly alone  

 (whenever or if I get back my license!) and I want for example open  

 a bottle of water using both hands. Previously I pressed the stick  

 with my right leg but it would feel better if I could fly hands  

 free for a short while.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... official passenger.

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

Again I tested

 carefuly the plane: slight pressure on the right pedal to keep the ball in

 the center

   

  MIchel, Sounds like a yaw problem...try the rudder tab.

  Dan B

 [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

Hello Lynn and Dan,

Well, I don't have any elevator trim but I trim pitch with the flaps handle whenever I feel for it. The plane is balanced to climb at full throttle and sink at idle. With the flaps handle, I can get it to fly level at cruise speed.

If I use the flap and keep level, whenever I free the stick, it still turns slightly right.



The need for right pedal is, I think, normal due to the propeller's torque. I need a substential push when I take off and can release it entirely on a descent at idle.



So far, I think the plane is well balanced as it is. If I put a tab on the elevator, ... I risk to have problem to do a three-points landing since that's the reason I never land with flaps on. If I put a tab on the rudder ... I risk to need left pedal when idling down a descent. My last idea is then to put a corrective tab to the flaperon. Doesn't it make sense?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... official passenger.

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: "Heavy" wing on Series 7

(The need for right pedal is, I think, normal due to the propeller's

 torque.)



  You are correct when on climbout (P-factor)...but if you need to keep your right foot in it in straight and level flight, then in my opinion, the rudder tab could help with the yaw. As for your pitch problem, I'm not familiar enough with the model 7 to help. On my IV I have 3 vertical attachment points for the leading edge of the HZ Stab. I might take a look at.

  Dan B

  Mesa, AZ

  KF-IV 912s building



  [quote] [b]

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