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Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

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marcel(at)zwakie.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years of age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a couple of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buying my own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know the reasons why   ), and instead of building one myself I will be looking for one that is for sale.



During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be fewer incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft.



One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number of incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.



Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or not being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be the two most common causes.



What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of hours, quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).



Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross- and/or gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.



Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and landings.



All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making process is highly appreciated!

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

zwakie a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and landings.



 All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making process is highly appreciated!



   


	


Zwakie,



The only thing we can take for granted is that nosewheel aircraft are 

usueally easier on takeoff and landing than their taildragger 

counterparts, especially in a strong crosswind.

I was never offered the opportunity to ride or fly a Europa, but my 

answer to such a question would be "Arrange to fly both models in order 

to get an opinion by yourself".

I'm sure you'll have no difficuly finding a Europa pilot willing to take 

you on board to get a feeling of his dreambird.



If you are reasonably well trained and proficient, a reasonably 

experienced pilot will have no problems leaving you the control for the 

takeoff and landing in a well behaved airplane.

If he insists on keeping the controls, then ask another pilot in another 

airplane 



But don't launch in a project before having flown the model you are 

considering. Or at the very least, have a competent and reliable pilot 

friend fly it for you.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

<<nosewheel......easier on takeoff and landing than their taildragger

counterparts, especially in a strong crosswind.>>



Not necessarily.

The tri gear can be steered only by its rudder and mainwheel brakes. The 

fixed taildragger can elect also to keep its tailwheel on the ground for 

additional steering effect, until the rudder is fully effective.

At which point the fixed taildragger can raise its tail to a position that 

keeps the mainwheels firmly on the ground; whereas a tri gear would 

wheelbarrow if this is to be tried.

The crosswind limitation of the TD is probably therefore higher than the 

trigear, for a given level of pilot familiarity.



Duncan Mcf.

---

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Duncan & Ami McFadyean a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Not necessarily.

 The tri gear can be steered only by its rudder and mainwheel brakes. 

 The fixed taildragger can elect also to keep its tailwheel on the 

 ground for additional steering effect, until the rudder is fully 

 effective.

 At which point the fixed taildragger can raise its tail to a position 

 that keeps the mainwheels firmly on the ground; whereas a tri gear 

 would wheelbarrow if this is to be tried.

 The crosswind limitation of the TD is probably therefore higher than 

 the trigear, for a given level of pilot familiarity.


	


Duncan,



I suppose you are talking about Europa models, which I never flew.

Nevertheless, I recently had to cancel flights on a taildragger in a 

27/G40 kt wind whereas I had no problems taxiing with the nosewheel 

counterpart.

Also, on 9 th of August, while taking off Duxford with only circa 18/20 

kt from the left, the wind was being strongly felt while it usually 

poses no problem in a nosewheel aircraftt.



BTW, how come we were the *only* visiting airplane on this "taildragger 

and Robin" bonus day ? I was hoping to see some British Europas.

Maybe is it the fact that we had to cross the Channel on our way back at 

600 ft in rain ?



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Zwakie-

  

 The other thing you need to keep in mind is insurance and resale of the airplane.  Both will be much more difficult for the monowheel.  All of us have had to make the choice.  I have a bunch of monowheel time in gliders but the Europa is quite a bit different than them.  I went the trigear route, which I think was the right way to go for me.

  

 Jim Puglise A-283

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com> 



[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" 

 

 I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years of 

 age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a couple 

 of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buying my 

 own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know the 

 reasons why  ), and instead of building one myself I will be looking for 

 one that is for sale. 

 

 During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations 

 Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of 

 incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to b  e fewe r 

 incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to 

 learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft. 

 

 One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number of 

 incidents occurred with the mono-gear type. 

 

 Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear 

 incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or not 

 being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be the two 

 most common causes. 

 

 What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with 

 experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of hours, 

 quite often also with hundreds of hours on type). 

 

 Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross- and/or 

 gusty winds, but the number of   incid   Searc  [quote][b]

tony.bale(at)virgin.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Marcel, welcome to the forum. I won't go on too much about the Europa other

than to say it is fun to fly, economical and fairly fast - you will

probably no most of this already. I fly a monowheel and would advise your

findings about crosswinds are correct, the mono can be tricky and I am told

by pilot's far more experienced than me, that they are quite different to

fly than other taildraggers.



I would strongly advise that if someone allows you to take off a mono

without an instructor or well experienced pilot on type with you, you tread

carefully.



Having said that, in normal conditions and wind direction it is quite

docile, but must hold your complete concentration at all times.



I would not consider a trike or conventional set up but that is simply my

choice, I like retractables. And if you do decide to take the plunge you

will love the flying, and I strongly recommend a VP prop - I sit behind an

Airmaster and think it's the best addition you can fit.



Interestingly at our strip we have a Tecnam Sierra, Sport Cruiser and RV9.

I have flown in formation with the Tecnam and can confirm it appears

significantly slower, The Sport Cruiser is yet to start its test programme

but I suspect will perform the same, and the RV9 is pretty much untouchable

!



Hope this helps, good luck !



Tony.     



Original Message:

-----------------

From: zwakie marcel(at)zwakie.com

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:12:26 +0300

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?




I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years

of age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since

a couple of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking

about buying my own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you

all the know the reasons why   ), and instead of building one myself

I will be looking for one that is for sale.



During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations

Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of

incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be

fewer incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't

ask!) to learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of

aircraft.



One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number

of incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.



Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear

incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or

not being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be

the two most common causes.



What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with

experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of

hours, quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).



Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross-

and/or gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.



Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide

between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if

flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the

nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa

compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and

landings.



All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making

process is highly appreciated!

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org





--------------------------------------------------------------------

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Paul Boulet

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Hi All;

 I originally built my XS as a mono wheel.  I was very unhappy with the configuration and converted it to Tri Gear which I love.  I take off and land much more like a Mooney than a Cessna- with full flaps on a Cessna you simply point the nose higher and higher while with a Mooney (and my XS) I hold a configuartion and let the speed bleed off.

  

 And in case any of you don't know, my tri gear is for sale- email me for details off list if interested

  

 Paul Boulet, Malibu, California  N914PB



--- On Fri, 8/22/08, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net <jimpuglise(at)comcast.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net <jimpuglise(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 1:54 PM



  Zwakie-

  

 The other thing you need to keep in mind is insurance and resale of the airplane.  Both will be much more difficult for the monowheel.  All of us have had to make the choice.  I have a bunch of monowheel time in gliders but the Europa is quite a bit different than them.  I went the trigear route, which I think was the right way to go for me.

  

 Jim Puglise A-283

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" 

 

 I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years of 

 age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a couple 

 of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buying my 

 own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know the 

 reasons why  ), and instead of building one myself I will be looking for 

 one that is for sale. 

 

 During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations 

 Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of 

 incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems  to b e fewe r 

 incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to 

 learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft. 

 

 One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number of 

 incidents occurred with the mono-gear type. 

 

 Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear 

 incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or not 

 being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be the two 

 most common causes. 

 

 What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with 

 experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of hours, 

 quite often also with hundreds of hours on type). 

 

 Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross- and/or  

 gusty winds, but the number of incid Searc  	  Quote: 	
		  


	




	
	


	
 [quote][b]

Brian Davies

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Hi Marcel,



You have touched on a hotly debated subject - Mono versus Trigear.



I originally built a Monowheel Europa with a Rotax 912S and Airmaster

variable pitch prop.  It was a very capable aircraft, enormous fun to fly

and no real problem taking off and landing on grass.  I found it quite

challenging to land in a crosswind on tarmac and eventually decided to

convert the aircraft to Trigear configuration.  It is now a much more

forgiving aircraft to land in crosswinds but it does not enjoy bumpy grass

so much.  If the aircraft has been modified to fit steel nosewheel springs

instead of the original bungee cords it can get quite "bouncy" if not

handled carefully on bumpy surfaces.



As with most aircraft types, once you have developed your technique none of

these things are a real problem.



Most Trigear are about 16Kg heavier than an equivalent Monowheel and tend to

use slightly more fuel.  The difference only really shows up on long

distance touring were the Mono has the edge on performance.  If you intend

to do long distance touring and want to exploit the full capacity of the

aircraft in terms of full fuel, two people and ample baggage, look for a

Europa that is no more than 400Kg empty weight.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From a pure enjoyment angle I found the Mono  much more challenging and much

more fun.  As a Trigear it gives me a much more relaxed flying experience
	


and more enjoyable touring.



There are a number of high quality Europas fore sale at the moment so this

is a good time to buy.  I suggest you join the Europa Club and get access to

a great deal of additional help and information.  Go to their website

www.europaclub.org.uk and follow the links to join online.



Best regards



Brian Davies, Membership Sec.

The Europa Club



--

marcel(at)zwakie.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

First, many thanks to the numerous people who provided me with lots of valuable information to my questions, both here on the forum as well as by sending me direct emails. 



The overall tone of the responses I received, seem to confirm my suspicion about flying mono-wheels. I was pleasantly surprised about the responses I received from a couple of 'mono-wheel-guys' who informed me about the Europa mono not being the typical taildragger, having some quirks of it's own. In translated the many advises into: 'be careful trying to tame this animal' and 'don't try to fly a mono without extensive training from an instructor/pilot that has extensive experience on type'.



Economical reasons (insurance/resale) and safety-reasons (higher level of required skill to handle a mono-wheel safely in all situations as opposed to a tri-gear) have lead to a decision: I will focus on a tri-gear from now on. 



OK, this question has been answered, many more to answer in the next stage of compiling the list of specs...



Again, thanks to you all!



Marcel

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

s(at)vestuti.orangehome.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Hi, i just thought i would add that even though there 

is no mention in the build manual ,the trigears main gear can come in usefull shoud you become entangled with pylon cables...



steve #573

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?

Having purchased an XS kit from an individual, who had never started 

work, I got a mono.  Before buying, however, I took a ride with John 

Hurst, who only had a mono to demonstrate.  After watching an 

experienced pilot, like John, handle the mono on concrete, I quickly 

made the decision to go Tri-gear.  I've never regretted that decision.



As for handling on rough grass (I'm hangared on a 3k grass strip), there 

certainly is a little bounce, however, the secret, I've found, is to 

keep the nose high at all times.  Even in fast taxi it makes a huge 

difference.  I've got over 500 landings on this surface, with no ill 

effects to plane or pilot... 



Jeff - Baby Blue



Brian Davies wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Hi Marcel,

 

 You have touched on a hotly debated subject - Mono versus Trigear.

 

 I originally built a Monowheel Europa with a Rotax 912S and Airmaster

 variable pitch prop.  It was a very capable aircraft, enormous fun to fly

 and no real problem taking off and landing on grass.  I found it quite

 challenging to land in a crosswind on tarmac and eventually decided to

 convert the aircraft to Trigear configuration.  It is now a much more

 forgiving aircraft to land in crosswinds but it does not enjoy bumpy grass

 so much.  If the aircraft has been modified to fit steel nosewheel springs

 instead of the original bungee cords it can get quite "bouncy" if not

 handled carefully on bumpy surfaces.

 

 As with most aircraft types, once you have developed your technique none of

 these things are a real problem.

 

 Most Trigear are about 16Kg heavier than an equivalent Monowheel and tend to

 use slightly more fuel.  The difference only really shows up on long

 distance touring were the Mono has the edge on performance.  If you intend

 to do long distance touring and want to exploit the full capacity of the

 aircraft in terms of full fuel, two people and ample baggage, look for a

 Europa that is no more than 400Kg empty weight.

 

>From a pure enjoyment angle I found the Mono  much more challenging and much

 more fun.  As a Trigear it gives me a much more relaxed flying experience

 and more enjoyable touring.

 

 There are a number of high quality Europas fore sale at the moment so this

 is a good time to buy.  I suggest you join the Europa Club and get access to

 a great deal of additional help and information.  Go to their website

 www.europaclub.org.uk and follow the links to join online.

 

 Best regards

 

 Brian Davies, Membership Sec.

 The Europa Club

 

 --

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