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RotaxEngines-List Digest

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Tom463(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest

The auto gas in Central Florida now has about 8% Ethnaol in it and has  become a major topic of conversation during hangar flying sessions.  An  experienced A&P recommends blending 100LL at a 50% ratio with the 93 Octane  for Rotax 912ULS engines.  I'm wondering if this would be a good diet for  my new 912S, which has yet to come out of the box.

  

 Tom

 Aventura II

 N569AT



It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Recently my gas station, like many I hear, stopped selling ethanol-free gasoline.  Bummer.  I notice the 5% drop in power.  But, Rotax is clear about the increased maintenance you must perform if you use 100LL.  Sunday I flew to 8000 feet in 95 degree F temperatures, parked the plane on a hot ramp, then started up and flew home again with no problems.  I'm going to stick with autogas and synthetic oil.   



Jack



On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:45 AM,  <Tom463(at)aol.com (Tom463(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        The auto gas in Central Florida now has about 8% Ethnaol in it and has  become a major topic of conversation during hangar flying sessions.  An  experienced A&P recommends blending 100LL at a 50% ratio with the 93 Octane  for Rotax 912ULS engines.  I'm wondering if this would be a good diet for  my new 912S, which has yet to come out of the box.

  

 Tom

 Aventura II

 N569AT



It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

    [/b] 	


[/quote]

-- 

Jack Kuehn

5565 Brady Ln

Lolo, MT USA 59847



(406)273-6801

(406)546-1086 cell

jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)

 (406)273-2563 fax

http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm

 



  [quote][b]

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Jack,

 5% is a very big change. Maybe something is going on that needs investigation. Adding alky should increase the octane, power, and slightly reduce the density (mpg).



 Most studies indicate higher power and lower MPG with the alky contaminated unleaded. These studies were for engines designed for non-contaminated unleaded.



 I agree unleaded and syn oil is the choice way to go.



 Paul

 ==================

 At 08:03 AM 8/26/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]Recently my gas station, like many I hear, stopped selling ethanol-free gasoline.  Bummer.  I notice the 5% drop in power.  But, Rotax is clear about the increased maintenance you must perform if you use 100LL.  Sunday I flew to 8000 feet in 95 degree F temperatures, parked the plane on a hot ramp, then started up and flew home again with no problems.  I'm going to stick with autogas and synthetic oil.  



 Jack



 On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:45 AM, <Tom463(at)aol.com (Tom463(at)aol.com)> wrote:

   The auto gas in Central Florida now has about 8% Ethnaol in it and has become a major topic of conversation during hangar flying sessions.  An experienced A&P recommends blending 100LL at a 50% ratio with the 93 Octane for Rotax 912ULS engines.  I'm wondering if this would be a good diet for my new 912S, which has yet to come out of the box.

   

  Tom

  Aventura II

  N569AT

 



 

   It's only a deal if it's where you[/i] want to go. Find your travel deal  here[/b].

 

  



 

 -- 

 Jack Kuehn

 5565 Brady Ln

 Lolo, MT USA 59847



 (406)273-6801

 (406)546-1086 cell

 jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)

 (406)273-2563 fax

  http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm



  	  Quote: 	
		  



RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.matronics.com

- List Contribution Web Site -

-Matt Dralle, List Admin.



http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[/b] 	
[b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest

As much as I think ethanol has no place in aviation, outside business class it really doesn’t, the fact is that some of us will have to make the same decision you have made.  Put in your shoes, Thank god I’m not, I’m sure I’d make the same decision.  Just continue to do your drip tests on your tanks.  If you see anything in the gas that doesn’t look right find out what it is before flying.  Another thing I wouldn’t do is leave gas in the wing tanks for weeks on end..  If you only fly occasionally then for the twenty minutes it takes to defuel the plane, it would be worth it to save the possibility of degrading your tanks and fuel delivery system.  Shut off the gas and burn the gas out of the carb bowls.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson

 Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:01 PM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest  

  

  

   

Jack,

 5% is a very big change. Maybe something is going on that needs investigation. Adding alky should increase the octane, power, and slightly reduce the density (mpg).

 

 Most studies indicate higher power and lower MPG with the alky contaminated unleaded. These studies were for engines designed for non-contaminated unleaded.

 

 I agree unleaded and syn oil is the choice way to go.

 

 Paul

 ==================

 At 08:03 AM 8/26/2008, you wrote:

 

   

Recently my gas station, like many I hear, stopped selling ethanol-free gasoline.  Bummer.  I notice the 5% drop in power.  But, Rotax is clear about the increased maintenance you must perform if you use 100LL.  Sunday I flew to 8000 feet in 95 degree F temperatures, parked the plane on a hot ramp, then started up and flew home again with no problems.  I'm going to stick with autogas and synthetic oil.  

 

 Jack

 

 On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:45 AM, <Tom463(at)aol.com (Tom463(at)aol.com)> wrote:  

The auto gas in Central Florida now has about 8% Ethnaol in it and has become a major topic of conversation during hangar flying sessions.  An experienced A&P recommends blending 100LL at a 50% ratio with the 93 Octane for Rotax 912ULS engines.  I'm wondering if this would be a good diet for my new 912S, which has yet to come out of the box.  

   

Tom  

Aventura II  

N569AT

 

 

       

  

It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.  



 

 

 -- 

 Jack Kuehn

 5565 Brady Ln

 Lolo, MT USA 59847

 

 (406)273-6801

 (406)546-1086 cell

 jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)

 (406)273-2563 fax

 http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm   	  Quote: 	
		    RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://forums.matronics.com- List Contribution Web Site --Matt Dralle, List Admin. 	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Gasoline contains approximately 116,000 BTU of energy per US Gallon.

Ethanol contains approximately 76,000 BTU of energy per US Gallon.



A blend of 8% ethanol with 92% gasoline would result in a fuel that contains approximately 112,800 BTU per US Gallon, which is about 2.8% less energy content than pure gasoline, which means one could expect about 2.8% less power available with this blend compared to gasoline without the ethanol.



Ethanol increases octane but does NOT add power, it reduces power available from the fuel. Power and Octane are unrelated as long as the octane of the fuel is adequate to prevent detonation. If the engine is designed to take advantage of a higher octane (higher compression, different cam and ignition timing, perhaps) then it might not suffer a loss of power with the ethanol laced gasoline.  Otherwise, some power loss from addition of ethanol is a given. You may not be able to notice a 2.8% drop in power but a dynamometer will.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Hi All,



91 octane with ethanol verses 100LL is quickly becoming a choice for everyone. Some have been using it for many years. Different places in the world have been using ethanol blends up to 20% or more without any real issues. We had a fuel station down the road 8 miles from our airport and he finally switched to ethanol. Many of us went down to the service station and ask that he switch back. He said it cost him 12 cents more for the 91 octane without ethanol. He took a week to think about it then said he would go back to ethanol free 91 because he sells very little to the autos and sells the bulk of 91 to the aircraft people. 

If you test a lot of service stations 91 fuel it usually test out at 5%, but of course some are up to the 10%. If given a choice I would use ethanol over 100LL any day. 100LL is far more damaging to your engine. The 10% ethanol or below won't hurt the 912 and the talks about vapor lock and phase separation is extremely slim. Many thousands of people use ethanol in aviation. I agree with Tom that the power loss is so small most people would not really even know.

You should not store 91 octane for more than 4 weeks. It will start to evaporate and lose its properties. Don't store it in the wings all winter.

Some people do recommend blending 100LL with 91 with ethanol. This works just fine and does stabilize the 91. In Rotax classes they recommend using 100LL over 8K', but many people do fly without any issues at much higher altitudes. If you use straight 100LL you should be using a lead scavenger like TCP or Decalin. Decalin has less harsh chemicals, is less corrosive  and is safer to handle.

The final choice to use either fuel is up to each person, but there is a lot of real time use of 91 with ethanol in 912's without any issues. [b]Do make sure that the other components of your fuel system can use the ethanol. i.e. a plastic fuel filter. Things like this may not hold up as well to the ethanol. Just take a few minutes and double check the rest of your fuel system.[/b] The Rotax 912 won't care.



If using 100LL a good semi synthetic oil like the Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 is a good choice and is still a good choice when using 91.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Speaking of other fuel system components, I contacted Saint Gobain, the manufacturer of Tygon fuel lines to see if their recommended Tygon formula F-4040A flexible yellow translucent line was ethanol tolerant. My question was specific to E10 gasoline and they said that there is no porblem at all using this particular Tygon formulation with E10. They did not say about higher concentrations of ethanol, probably because asked specifically about E10.



Their are many different Tygon formulations so not all of them are gasoline and/or ethanol tolerant. Here is a website to this particular Tygon product. 



http://tinyurl.com/mpyet



If I need to change fuel lines this is what I intend to use because it is translucent, flexible down to -35 degrees F, lightweight and E10 tolerant.



You can search their other products at



http://www.tygon.com/

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Ooops! I forgot something rather important about the Tygon F-4040A. It is not heat tolerant beyond 165 degrees F so it is not suitable for hot cowled engine areas.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Thom,



I had F4040A installed in the fuel system of our Europa for a couple of years.  I found that it discolored and got very brittle in two years.  After talking to Tygon, I have switched to Tygon SE200.  It is a PVC hose with a teflon liner.  I started testing it in a jar of auto gasoline four months ago and it is staying clear and flexible better than F4040A.  Tygothane (polyurethane without plasticizers) is also doing well in the test.  I am using Tygothane in one place where the hose is submerged in gasoline.  All the Tygon hose is available at McMaster Carr.



Jim Butcher

Europa N241BW

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Jim,



I just got back from a ten day trip without internet access. Thanks for relating your experience with F4040A and the results of your testing of other Tygon products. That is why this list is so valuable to all.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest

Hi Jim,



Please let me know how your test work out. I was looking for some clear hose for use in the Flight Design CT for a fuel site tube in the cockpit. The tubing we use turns dark brown in about a year with auto gas, 100LL doesn't cause the discoloration. I talked to Tygon and they told me all their clear tubing would eventually turn brown with auto fuel so a did not pursue this with them. I would be very interested in how the SE200 works out. This is not a hot environment for us, but does have fuel in it 24/7.



Good luck I hope it works out well.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

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