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HKS Fuel system
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gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

Anyone running a HKS have any issues with fuel starvation running a pulse pump only on full throttle applications?

---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: HKS Fuel system

I do not have an HKS engine, I have a Rotax 912, but the basics of good fuel system design apply to both engines.  On a Kolb, the engine is quite a ways above the fuel tanks which needs consideration.   It is good practice, for a number of reasons to have a fuel pump below the level of the fuel, so that the pump forces fuel under pressure up to the engine drive pump rather than just trying to suck the fuel up several feet.  The suction method will work many times, but even a very good pump can have problems with this.   An impulse pump is not very powerful and is just asking for problems like you are having when trying to draw fuel up several feet.



On my Kolb, I have a Facet electric pump mounted below the fuel tanks that pressure feeds fuel to the engine driven pump on my 912-S.   With a pressure system, I am less likely to have vapor formation in the fuel lines and a pinhole leak in the system will not result in sudden engine failure with this setup.   The Facet pump is about 40 bucks from aircraft spruce and is rated to outlast  your airplane 10 times over.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Re: HKS Fuel system

I have an HKS engine on a Firestar II.  The HKS manual says to use an electric pump if the fuel level is below engine level.   The fuel level is about 2.5 feet lower than the engine on the FS II.  I didn't use the pulse pump at all.  I have two electric facet pumps in parallel - works great.



The HKS requires a 12 volt electrical source to the ignition system to run (same as your car).  Since, the engine is not going to run without 12 volts, a good electrical system is critical to an HKS installation.  The Facet pumps are extremely reliable, and use little electricity.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: HKS Fuel system

Has the TBO been upped on the HKS yet?????Â  

 

  Mark

   

 --

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

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Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: HKS Fuel system TBO increase

Per e-mail from HKS Japan, they will announce an increase to 1000 hrs by the end of this year.

Mnflyer flying a HKS Kitfox

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

Rick, did that Honda have a carb?

It depends upon whether the appropriate duty is being applied.  The  

facet on my plane

is a low flow application designed for such.  Fuel injection plumbing  

uses a very high flow pump.

Aftermarket pumps for FI can be bought at sources like Summit with  

labels like holley and carter

or you could throw money away on a magnaflow pump for $500+ . there's  

a sucker born every minute.

Factory FI pumps will serve all the gas any car can take.

BB



On 3, Sep 2008, at 5:40 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



[quote] 

 <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

 ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

Robert



Yes that was a dual "carb" Honda. It looked identical to my airplane Facet. 

It was a different model because my airplane was the lower pressure model.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

NICE! 

   GB

  Thanks for the FYI...

  

 

  Lets hope this isn't Â a pipe dream and that it really delivers...

  BTW how many hours are on your HKS?

  

 

  

 

  Currently a 503 user...

  

 

  Mark

 

  

 

 --

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: HKS Fuel system

This is good until the lighting coil in the engine quits, or a fuse blows.

This still puts all the eggs in one basket...  After 545 hours I will still

use the facet pump as a backup to the pump on the 912.



Boyd



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	




I have two electric facet pumps in parallel - works great.

--------

Dave Bigelow

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: HKS Fuel system

> This is good until the lighting coil in the engine quits, or a fuse 

blows.

 	  Quote: 	
		   This still puts all the eggs in one basket...  After 545 hours I will 

 still

 use the facet pump as a backup to the pump on the 912.



 Boyd


	




Hi Boyd:



Correct me if I am wrong.  The 912 series engine use an alternator for 

aircraft power, and two seperate generators for the two seperate ignition 

systems.  I think that is the way I remember being taught in Rotax 912 

engine school.



Am I to understand the HKS uses one system to power accessories and dual 

ign?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: HKS Fuel system

Dave B, are they separately fused/relayed or both?

BB



On 4, Sep 2008, at 10:33 AM, boyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This is good until the lighting coil in the engine quits, or a fuse  

 blows.

 This still puts all the eggs in one basket...  After 545 hours I  

 will still

 use the facet pump as a backup to the pump on the 912.



 Boyd



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 I have two electric facet pumps in parallel - works great.

 --------

 Dave Bigelow

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: Re: HKS TBO Increase

Hi Mark

I currently have 284 hrs on my engine, installed it in early 06 first flt was April of 06, I am very happy with everything about the engine. 

	

Mark asked:

BTW how many hours are on your HKS?

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

> This is good until the lighting coil in the engine quits, or a fuse 

blows.

 	  Quote: 	
		   This still puts all the eggs in one basket...  After 545 hours I will 

 still

 use the facet pump as a backup to the pump on the 912.



 Boyd


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Boyd:


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Correct me if I am wrong.  The 912 series engine use an alternator for 

aircraft power, and two seperate generators for the two seperate ignition 

systems.  I think that is the way I remember being taught in Rotax 912 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  engine school.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Am I to understand the HKS uses one system to power accessories and dual 

ign?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  john h

mkIII 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


John...  I think you are right...  but for clarity I believe the lighting

and 2 cdi and also the tach coils are all on the same stator,  they have

separate output wires that feed their intended destinations.  And you could

have one coil go bad, say the left cdi... and the engine would still run on

the right cdi...   but if the lighting coil goes out, you are finished with

charging the battery,  and would be left with what power is in the battery.

I do not believe there is a redundant backup to the lighting coil.   



My point was not that he would loose the spark if the lighting coil went

out,,,  only that if his only source of getting fuel to the engine was the 2

facet pumps....   and no engine driven pump.  An electrical failure would

quickly become an engine failure due to fuel exhaustion.  If the charging

circuit fails the battery should keep things going for a while,,  



but if a main buss fuse blows,,,  

even with the lighting coil working,,,  

no electricity to the pumps,,,   

no gas to the engine,,,  

no turning of the prop,  

look for a place to set it down.



If my only source of fuel pumping was 2 electric pumps,,, I would want 2

batteries,, 2 fuses,,  2 switches,,,  in order to have it redundant.. and

maybe Dave has that under control.  If not I would rethink something.



Or maybe I missed something in the translation and my thoughts are all wet.

I am a plumber you know. It could happen.  I kind of got mostly wet this

afternoon,, but that is another story.



Boyd Young

MkIII

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: HKS Fuel system

All, the HKS engine's ignition system is nearly identical to that of the Rotax 912 with the exception that the HKS has a CDI box between each ignition pickup on the stator and the coil. I'd guess this is because it needs the extra power to fire the plug given the higher compression of the HKS (11.3 to 1). The book says the CDI's will work down to 10 volts. If I were to lose the alternator I'd shut down everything but the mags and the boost pump, hit "nearest" on the GPS (now operating off its own internal batteries), relax and fly to my new destination. The 17AH battery will give at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain.

Rick

do not archive

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:10 PM, boyd <by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" <by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net)>

  > This is good until the lighting coil in the engine quits, or a fuse

 blows.

 > This still puts all the eggs in one basket...  After 545 hours I will

 > still

 > use the facet pump as a backup to the pump on the 912.

 >

 > Boyd

 >Hi Boyd:

 >Correct me if I am wrong.  The 912 series engine use an alternator for

 >aircraft power, and two seperate generators for the two seperate ignition

 systems.  I think that is the way I remember being taught in Rotax 912

 >engine school.

 >Am I to understand the HKS uses one system to power accessories and dual

 >ign?

 >john h

 >mkIII

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John...  I think you are right...  but for clarity I believe the lighting

 and 2 cdi and also the tach coils are all on the same stator,  they have

 separate output wires that feed their intended destinations.  And you could

 have one coil go bad, say the left cdi... and the engine would still run on

 the right cdi...   but if the lighting coil goes out, you are finished with

 charging the battery,  and would be left with what power is in the battery.

 I do not believe there is a redundant backup to the lighting coil.

 My point was not that he would loose the spark if the lighting coil went

 out,,,  only that if his only source of getting fuel to the engine was the 2

 facet pumps....   and no engine driven pump.  An electrical failure would

 quickly become an engine failure due to fuel exhaustion.  If the charging

 circuit fails the battery should keep things going for a while,,

 but if a main buss fuse blows,,,

 even with the lighting coil working,,,

 no electricity to the pumps,,,

 no gas to the engine,,,

 no turning of the prop,

 look for a place to set it down.

 If my only source of fuel pumping was 2 electric pumps,,, I would want 2

 batteries,, 2 fuses,,  2 switches,,,  in order to have it redundant.. and

 maybe Dave has that under control.  If not I would rethink something.

 Or maybe I missed something in the translation and my thoughts are all wet.

 I am a plumber you know. It could happen.  I kind of got mostly wet this

 afternoon,, but that is another story.

 Boyd Young

 MkIII

[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Re: HKS Fuel system

 	  aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		   



The 17AH battery will give at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain.

 

	




A battery that big should give you several hours running time if the charging system fails...  An ignition system and a facett fuel pump do not draw more than a few amps.  You would probably run out of gas before your engine died due to the battery running down.



For the ignition system on an HKS, you are best off to NEVER use a fuse on it, or relay, or anything of the sort.   Why would you want a fuse or any device that could suddenly cut power to your ignition system in order to protect it ?  It should be hard wired to its power source.   You want power to get to the ignition system no matter what happens.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

All, the HKS engine's ignition system is nearly identical to that of the Rotax 912 with the exception that the HKS has a CDI box between each ignition pickup on the stator and the coil. I'd guess this is because it needs the extra power to fire the plug given the higher compression of the HKS (11.3 to 1). The book says the CDI's will work down to 10 volts. If I were to lose the alternator I'd shut down everything but the mags and the boost pump, hit "nearest" on the GPS (now operating off its own internal batteries), relax and fly to my new destination. The 17AH battery will give at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain.

 

 Rick

 do not archive  

   

   

What would happen if there were an electrical short and the main fuse to the charging system blows, or it is not present  and because of the short the battery is pulled to below 10 volts…   Would the engine quit????    Do the cdi”s need power from the lighting circuit or are they independent???  

   

This is totally unrelated to the original question I posed…..  which was if there were a loss of electrical power and the only fuel pumps were  electric,     if you don’t fuse the pumps and one of them shorts out…..   the result would be a possible fire in the wiring, or it would continue to pull the battery level down at an accelerated rate…     

   

The question was posed on the premise that the only fuel pumps were 2 electrical facet pumps and no engine driven pumps… an electrical melt down would stop fuel flow.   I had not considered cdi  or the loss of sparks.  Apparently that is now being discussed as well.  

   

I was riding with a friend in his family car when an unfused circuit shorted out   ( the installation of an aftermarket stereo)  ….  Suddenly we were trying to dodge traffic, pull off the road,  and try to put out the fire before we were involved in a crash or the entire car went up in flames.   Fuses are installed for a couple reasons….  First it protects the device and secondly it protects the wiring.   And if either catches on fire,,  it will bring an end to the fun in a hurry.  And in the event of an electric fuel pump…  the fan quits in short order  even if every other thing is ok.  

   

I like my eggs in 2 baskets,,, 1: an engine driven pump,     and 2: an electric driven pump.  

   

Boyd Young  

MkIII  

   

       [quote][b]

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: HKS Fuel system

The reason for having fuses or a circuit breaker in the HKS CDI wiring system is thats the way the HKS installation manual says to do it. A 3 amp fuse or circuit breaker of each unit.  As posted a fuse is a safety device and needed in any circuit. While anything can happen a total light coil / alternator failure is not common, I'm in my 60's and have ridden snowmobiles for 40+ years and have flown Rotax and HKS powered aircraft for 15+ yrs and have yet to experience a lighting coil or alternator failure, I have has snowmobile CDI failure (never has happened while running but on shut down would not fire when tring to start again) and I've had point ignition failure  for that  reason I do not like single ignition aircraft engines.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: HKS Fuel system

Boyd, Well, it started out as an answer to the question posed by John.

To answer yours, I'd suggest you join the Aeroelectric forum which is also

here on the Matronic list. Get yourself a copy of Bob Nuckolls' book, learn

about building a fault tolerant electrical system for your aircraft, and

then use one of Bob's sample schematics as the basis for your system.

Just the way I do it, you ideas may differ.



Rick

do not archive



On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:59 PM, boyd <by0ung(at)brigham.net> wrote:



[quote]  All, the HKS engine's ignition system is nearly identical to that of the

 Rotax 912 with the exception that the HKS has a CDI box between each

 ignition pickup on the stator and the coil. I'd guess this is because it

 needs the extra power to fire the plug given the higher compression of the

 HKS (11.3 to 1). The book says the CDI's will work down to 10 volts. If I

 were to lose the alternator I'd shut down everything but the mags and the

 boost pump, hit "nearest" on the GPS (now operating off its own internal

 batteries), relax and fly to my new destination. The 17AH battery will give

 at least a half hour endurance at that rate of drain.



 Rick

 do not archive



 What would happen if there were an electrical short and the main fuse to

 the charging system blows, or it is not present  and because of the short

 the battery is pulled to below 10 volts…   Would the engine quit????    Do

 the cdi"s need power from the lighting circuit or are they independent???



 This is totally unrelated to the original question I posed…..  which was if

 there were a loss of electrical power and the only fuel pumps were

  electric,     if you don't fuse the pumps and one of them shorts out….

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: HKS Fuel system

If you have two Facet fuel pumps, you should fuse and power each one separately.  That way the failure of one fuel pump will be a non issue, you probably wont even know about it until you test them.  No one is telling you not to fuse the fuel pumps.



I am not familiar with HKS ignition, but If both ignitions use the same electrical supply, you most definitely do not want to fuse it.  Adding fuses also adds a bunch more electrical connections, and sometimes fuses just blow when they should not, it happens.   I would much rather burn a module, or a wire on the engine than adding all the failure points of running the ignition power down to a fuse than back up to the engine.   



If your fuse blows, or a connections vibrates loose, and your engine quits suddenly at a very bad time, will you still be saying , at least had a fuse ?  Power directly from the power output of the engine to the ignition.  That way it is a very short and simple connection, and chances of a failure are about zero.  Even if you do short the wire on the engine, its not going to burn anything or cause a fire with such a short run in a non critical area.  Your experience from a car does not apply in any way in this case.  The power from the battery should have a fuse, because the wire is running into the airframe and most definitely would be a hazard in a short.   Bottom line, you have to educate yourself, and be knowledgeable enough to know what is a real risk and what is not.  Just taking some experience from an automobile and trying to apply it to all aspects of wiring an airplane is not the right thing to do.   



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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