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601XL/TD

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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

Paul:

  

 Real  Pilots fly  Tail Draggers

  

 Real Bikers  ride Kick Starters 

  

       

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 PLEASE Do not archive.

  

  

 

--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>

Subject: Re: Re: 601XL/TD

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 10:02 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>



There are some down side issues with tail draggers too.



Tail draggers have much higher accident rates than tricycle gear 

planes.  The accidents are not usually fatal or even very bad for 

human injury, but the damage to the planes is expensive.  That means 

insurance can be a lot higher for tail draggers.



My own (mostly uninformed) opinion is that tail draggers were never 

really meant for use on runways and particularly not on paved 

runways.  They are well suited to flying fields that allow takeoff 

and landing always directly into the wind.



I read an analysis on RV's that changing from a tail dragger to a 

nose wheel configuration added a mere 2 miles per hour to a 200 mph plane.



Given all that, I feel tricycle gear is a much better choice.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 06:41 PM 7/30/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would not expect the interest to be as high in the tail dragger 

version, but

I suspect that is because most learn to fly now in tricycle gear aircraft.

However, tailwheel aircraft usually have less drag and weight less. While

that might not be as important in many applications, for LSA, it seems to

me
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  it should have a much greater level of consideration.


	




	
	


         [quote][b]

steve(at)data-base-soluti
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

<< Real  Pilots fly  Tail Draggers  

   

Real Bikers  ride Kick Starters >>  

   

I have air conditioning in my Jeep Wrangler so I better not get sucked in to this thread.  

   

Do not archive.  

   

Steve  

         

  

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower

 Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:59 AM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 601XL/TD  

  

              

Paul:   

      

    

      

Real  Pilots fly  Tail Draggers   

      

    

      

Real Bikers  ride Kick Starters    

      

    

      

         

      

    

      

Saludos   

      

Gary Gower   

      

PLEASE Do not archive.   

      

    

      

    

      



   --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     

From: Paul Mulwitz   <psm(at)att.net>

   Subject: Re: Re: 601XL/TD

   To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 10:02 PM    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> There are some down side issues with tail draggers too. Tail draggers have much higher accident rates than tricycle gear planes.  The accidents are not usually fatal or even very bad for human injury, but the damage to the planes is expensive.  That means insurance can be a lot higher for tail draggers. My own (mostly uninformed) opinion is that tail draggers were never  	
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       [quote][b]

m.l.marcotte(at)sympatico
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: 601XL/TD

They also eat runway lights for breakfast...  

 [quote]   ---

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

On Wednesday 03 September 2008 19:14, M.Marcotte wrote:



Somehow, we managed to fly taildraggers for years, until we got enough 

performance that we could afford the extra weight and drag of a tricycle 

gear. There's no question that they are slightly more difficult to land (and 

perhaps, to a lesser extent, take off). And yes, modern design has managed to 

reduce the impact of tricycle gear. It doesn't eliminate it, but it certainly 

reduces it.



But it begs the original issue. Is the limited performance we have with LSAs 

such that we should seriously consider trimming all the weight and drag we 

can, to the extent of considering tail wheel aircraft?



The 601/650 is one of the better designs around (the best, in my judgement), 

yet it could still use all the additional payload it can get. Tricytcle gears 

usually weigh  more than conventional gears. There isn't too much obvious 

additional reduction in drag one could get, other than maybe going to a 

conventional gear.



I say all this with considerable trepedation. By the time I began taking 

flying lessons (1968), most training was done in tricycle gear aircraft, and 

I've never flown a conventionally geared aircraft. 



Still, if money and other factors permitted, I'd still be flying my Cherokee 

180, so I must consider all factors before making a final committment.



[quote] They also eat runway lights for breakfast... 

   ---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 08:08:29AM -0500, Jim Belcher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   But it begs the original issue. Is the limited performance we have with LSAs 

 such that we should seriously consider trimming all the weight and drag we 

 can, to the extent of considering tail wheel aircraft?


	


Just how much does the 601's nose gear weigh?



One of the questions I was asked when I was getting insurance was whether

the airplane was a taildragger; it would have been significantly more

expensive if it had been. When you consider that the insurance industry

views LSAs with deep skepticism due to their accident rates, adding

taildragger into the mix would be a big hit.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: 601XL/TD

 	  jmaynard wrote: 	
		  Just how much does the 601's nose gear weigh?



	




According to William Wynne the 601XL/TD he built didn't weigh that much more than a tricycle geared version. Though he does add the caveat that the plane he built did have some of the hardware already mounted. But not the gear and the wheel/tire.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

On Thursday 04 September 2008 10:41, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 jmaynard wrote:

 > Just how much does the 601's nose gear weigh?



 According to William Wynne the 601XL/TD he built didn't weigh that much

 more than a tricycle geared version. Though he does add the caveat that the

 plane he built did have some of the hardware already mounted. But not the

 gear and the wheel/tire.


	


I'm not sure I understand ... do you mean the TD weighed more than the 

tricycle version? I would have expected the reverse. If the coventional gear 

weighs more than the tricycle gear, then the choice would be more obvious.



I have asked Zenith the question about conventional gear vs tricycle gear 

weight, and was told I'd get an answer right after Osh. It may be that 

everyone is busy with the new variant coming out, but so far, I don't have an 

answer.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

dalemed

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 46

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Re: 601XL/TD

Here are my reasons for building the 601XL/TD:



1) I think it looks better

2) I've owned 3 planes, all of which were taildraggers, and I don't want to change now.

3) While I can't quantify it, I'm sure the tailwheel parts weigh less than the nosewheel parts.

4) Less aerodynamic drag.

5) I won't have to worry about the tail hitting the ground when a stout person (such as myself) puts their weight on the step to climb into the plane.

6) I won't have the holes in the firewall for the nosewheel steering rods.

7) I won't have to worry about the tail hitting the ground during a full stall landing.

8) I'm putting a Corvair engine on the front which is heavier than a Rotax or Jabiru.  A little more weight in the tail instead of the nose shouldn't hurt.

9) I think it looks better.

_________________
Dale
Zenith Zodiac CH650

tiethoff

Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 23

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

I think you are right. Nosewheels are for sissies !



Eric



--------------------------------------------------

From: "dalemed" <dalemed(at)gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:35 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: 601XL/TD



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Here are my reasons for building the 601XL/TD:



 1) I think it looks better

 2) I've owned 3 planes, all of which were taildraggers, and I don't want 

 to change now.

 3) While I can't quantify it, I'm sure the tailwheel parts weigh less than 

 the nosewheel parts.

 4) Less aerodynamic drag.

 5) I won't have to worry about the tail hitting the ground when a stout 

 person (such as myself) puts their weight on the step to climb into the 

 plane.

 6) I won't have the holes in the firewall for the nosewheel steering rods.

 7) I won't have to worry about the tail hitting the ground during a full 

 stall landing.

  I'm putting a Corvair engine on the front which is heavier than a Rotax 

 or Jabiru.  A little more weight in the tail instead of the nose shouldn't 

 hurt.

 9) I think it looks better.



 --------

 Dale

 Flying Cessna 170B

 Building Zenith 601XL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2745#202745

jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: 601XL/TD

So are electrical systems.



--- On Fri, 9/5/08, Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet) <j.e.tiethoff(at)hccnet.nl> wrote:

[quote]From: Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet) <j.e.tiethoff(at)hccnet.nl>

Subject: Re: Re: 601XL/TD

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 7:45 AM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet)"

<j.e.tiethoff(at)hccnet.nl>



I think you are right. Nosewheels are for sissies !



Eric



--------------------------------------------------

From: "dalemed" <dalemed(at)gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:35 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: 601XL/TD



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith601-List message  posted by: "dalemed"

<dalemed(at)gmail.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Here are my reasons for building the 601XL/TD:



 1) I think it looks better

 2) I've owned 3 planes, all of which were taildraggers, and I

don't want 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   to change now.

 3) While I can't quantify it, I'm sure the tailwheel parts weigh

less than 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   the nosewheel parts.

 4) Less aerodynamic drag.

 5) I won't have to worry about the tail hitting the ground when a

stout 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   person (such as myself) puts their weight on the step to climb into the 

 plane.

 6) I won't have the holes in the firewall for the nosewheel steering

rods.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   7) I won't have to worry about the tail hitting the ground during a

full 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   stall landing.

  I'm putting a Corvair engine on the front which is heavier than a

Rotax 
	


[quote] or Jabiru.  A little more weight in the tail instead of the nose

shouldn't  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Re: 601XL/TD

 	  dalemed wrote: 	
		  Here are my reasons for building the 601XL/TD:



1) I think it looks better

...

9) I think it looks better. 	




1 & 9 were all the reasons you really needed.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dalemed

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 46

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: 601XL/TD

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  



1 & 9 were all the reasons you really needed. 	




Which is why they framed the rest

_________________
Dale
Zenith Zodiac CH650

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