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Gas talk - Float plane trip
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Prime minister "Harpo" (If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious)

passed legislation that gives a year or so before ethanol contamination has

to be everywhere.  I still want to know who he is going to get to transport

it to the island or the arctic.  If the stuff was so good they wouldn't have

to legislate it's use...  I wonder if he is also shovelling it's use into

the military.



Oh well there's an election in the works...  Maybe we should all go with

Premier Danny Williams ABC voting practice...That's Anything But

Conservative.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Noel, 



the point is that I fly a fair bit with gas yes GAS- Regular ethanol laced auto gas.   --And guess what -- it still runs .  



I just look at the ethanol fear mongering as just from folks that are not sure. ?  Heck, i not want it but I forced to use it and so far it works fine. Maybe I will be eating my own foot soon but after 3000 Gallons of ethanol gas in my Kitfox alone and no fuel issues and one engine that ran 500 hours and still ran fine I cannot say that ethanol is a detriment to my flying.  



Time to get your 912 running and put some hours on yours. I would use the same as I have been. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Prime minister "Harpo" (If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious) 

passed legislation that gives a year or so before ethanol contamination has 

to be everywhere. I still want to know who he is going to get to transport 

it to the island or the arctic. If the stuff was so good they wouldn't have 

to legislate it's use... I wonder if he is also shovelling it's use into 

the military. 



Oh well there's an election in the works... Maybe we should all go with 

Premier Danny Williams ABC voting practice...That's Anything But 

Conservative. 



Noel

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
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Highest rated on youtube

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

I have the parts ordered from Bob but he is moving shop to BC and I guess

they will be coming soon.  I figure two or three days tops once I get the

parts then the paperwork with TC begins...  They wi8ll issue me a test

authority to do a ROC test.  They want I think it is 200 ft/ min... Figure

I'll get it  ?? 



In the mean time as for the eth It's all bad...  The stuff will eat several

types of resin.  It cannot be made within the constraints of good economics.

It gives off more production of CO2 (in production) than gas does gallon for

gallon.  It is causing horrendous inflation at the supermarket not to

mention the beer brewing shop.  Add to all that when eth is burned it does

five off a gas which is both toxic and bad for the O3 layer.  Years ago they

had a good idea involving using propane to power cars.  We have lots of it,

it sure burns clean, and it would leave gas to be used in things like

planes... Best of all we are just about adrift in the stuff.



It surprises me that they require the crap to be put into marina fuel.  They

know there are stated problems with moisture so it makes no sense to sell it

at marinas.  They know there are flight issues yet they don't allow non eth

fuel to be sold at air strips.



My outlook on it is the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  If we all lie back

and say ok Steve you're wrong with this but we'll do it any way then we get

what we deserve.  If, on the other hand, we stand out ground and let him

know in the upcoming election that the whole idea of ethanol in the gas was

a bad idea from the get go and he can consider it from the opposition

benches.  We may just move to a more responsible form of fuel management.

If they took the money they are now aimlessly throwing away on ethanol

production and used it to give tax breaks to vehicles that used less and

less fuel then we would chop the law of supply and demand.  We would be more

responsible and our economies would be strengthened.



I'm wondering because you have had no ill effects with the eth there may be

some other additive in the gas in your area that may be protecting your

plane.  It may also have something to do with the rate you put fuel through

your plane.  It may also have something to do with not leaving gas in your

plane for days on end.  IU don't think the occasional tank of E hurts

anything... In fact it would probably clean things out a bit.  Unless they

can guarantee the quality of the E being delivered I am still leery of using

it for boating or flying.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Noel, 



This should make your stomach turn then.  The pic below was taken of me a few days ago after flying about 45 miles across open water  with a Rotax 582 and ethanol gas.   Go figure. 



Dave

DSCF0003-2.JPG

Description:

Kitfox IV Amphib.
www.cfisher.com
Rotax 582

Filesize:

676.09 KB

Viewed:

380 Time(s)

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Only thing that makes my stomach turn is the fact that my plane is still

waiting for parts and I'm not up there with you.  That's ok though...my turn

is coming   



I never had any problem that required a forced approach with the 582 but the

eth does concern me a bit.  Looks like you had a perfect day and a forced

approach wouldn't have been a problem from your altitude.



Glad to see you have your boots on again!



Back to looking at the rest of the videos now.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Ethanol use in gasoline is also causing the greatest environmental disasters ever seen on this planet.   Now that the demand for Corn, and food is way up because we are burning it our cars, deforestation of the land is happening at an exponential pace.  Places like Malaysia and Brasil are now growing more food to make up the difference, and deforesting massive amounts of land to do it.



To produce enough ethanol to fill up a typical SUV ( 25 gallons or so ) it takes enough corn to feed a person for an entire year       Millions are being pushed into starvation by this policy.    Bad for the environment, bad for starving people, and bad for our economy due to hugely increased fuel prices...   



Most importantly, ethanol is bad for our airplanes    



Yes, its time to fight ethanol use mandated by idiots as hard as we can.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Mike, Like i said I am not a supporter of ethanol but rather forced to use it.  My point is once again after thousands of gallons of gasoline burned in my Kitfox with the mandated ethanol I have had ZERO problems like you and others talk about.   Show me why I am wrong



Dave 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Most importantly, ethanol is bad for our airplanes  



Yes, its time to fight ethanol use mandated by idiots as hard as we can. 



Mike

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Dave and Mike - hope you don't mind my jumping in here...



I had *very* noticeable problems with my 1989 model II with the first tank

of 6% ethanol gas: severe discoloration (so dark I could hardly see through

it) and black particles in the fuel sump that took about 4 drains to clear

up. I drained the fuel completely and put in ethanol-free 92 octane -

sediment lessened for about 3 pre-flight cycles and is now running crystal

clear.



I have ordered ethanol-proof gas line hoses and a new fuel filter, and will

continue to use ethanol-free while I can.



I suggest that your fuel system Dave is already fairly ethanol-proofed?

Whether you did it intentionally or not? But I also suggest that there are

other older planes out there like mine that could suffer rubber

disintegration like I did and will benefit from whatever experiences others

have had. I used 6% ethanol(measured) and had problems, I switched to

0%(measured) without changing anything else and the problems went away.



I don't remember who said it but "learn by other's mistakes, you can't

possibly live long enough to only learn from your own" 



Your airplane is obviously ethanol-safe. Can I ask what fuel lines you have

installed and if you have actually tested your fuel for ethanol content -

and what that % is?



Thanks!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

 	  Quote: 	
		  Your airplane is obviously ethanol-safe. Can I ask what fuel lines you have 

installed and if you have actually tested your fuel for ethanol content - 

and what that % is? 

	




Never tested for ethanol but we are supposed to have it for last 2 years up to 10% .   I use superthane fuel lines and/or blue urethane lines. I have black fuel lines from wingtanks to the Tee. alum line after that.

Wingtanks has no sloshing in them just the way they came. 



I just buy gas -- auto or marine where ever I go and it works.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

The gas station I buy my ethanol-free premium from has a sticker on the pump

that states "May contain up to 10% ethanol" as required by local law. Actual

ethanol in the fuel is not required for another year or 2. Two other

stations have the same sticker (although one makes it with a pretty green

environmentally-friendly stylized E<g>) and test as 5% and 6%, it was the 6%

that caused my problems.



I also may have an unusual kit in that my rubber gas hoses are UK type, and

I also have placards  that state in no uncertain terms "NO ALCOHOL

CONTAINING FUEL ALLOWED".



That's good info about your fuel lines and wing tanks - mine are all either

rubber or aluminum and I Cremed the wing tank myself to fix a seam leak.

Never saw any Creme sediment, only black. As I said I am replacing the

rubber as I go, and I think I will need to rebuild the Bings too for

safety's sake. They're 16 years old, a rebuild couldn't hurt.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I just buy gas -- auto or marine where ever I go and it works.


	


Can I, with all due respect, and having read many of your posts the respect

is real, challenge your "prove me wrong" statement earlir by asking that you

do the simple add-water-and-shake test for ethanol? I have the calibrated

tube that has 1% gradules but any thin clear container will work - just mix

10% water and 90% gas, draw a line where they separate, look to see if the

water volume increases after shaking and settling.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

We just started getting fuel with ethanol here.  My friend got his first batch of this ethanol fuel carp in his airplane without knowing it.  It has fiberglass tanks, within a week fuel was leaking out of his wings    



Every plane will react differently, according to Kitfox, the new tanks they sell tolerate ethanol very well.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

tstaley(at)centurytel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Mike,

I am having a problem with the fuel leak also. Went out to the hanger and

there was fuel below and behind the wing.

How much trouble is it to replace the tank?

LeRoy

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

LeRoy,



Years ago, I found a few small leaks near the filler cap on the top ot the 

tank.  With the help of friends, I took the wing off and resloshed the 

tanks, first by doing a couple of sloshes with a couple of gallons of 

acetone, then Kreem.  I have a lot of confidence in Kreem, though this is 

sometimes seen as a low grade dimentia by some.  I did some test-tube 

testing with Kreem in all sorts of stuff including denatured alcohol, with 

no changes in sseveral months.  This is tons easier than stripping fabric 

and removing and replacing the tank.  If it doesn't work, you would be out 

maybe $60 and some fun times with friends.  Do a search of the archives on 

resloshing as a few have done this before.  I covered the top and bottom of 

the tank end of the wing with vinyl sheet and masking tape to protect the 

finish.



Lowell



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Not that I eat a raft of corn every year but I sure eat my share of beef, pork and chicken all of which are corn fed to some extent.  Feeding these animals the grouts from ethanol production just doesn't cut it.  I have a vet friend who told me the grouts contain steroids that will cause a cow to increase production at the cost of her life and whatever comfort cows have.  Some where this has to end... I can only come to the conclusion that most politicians are either three parts brain dead or just don’t give a S***!  I blame the politicians because they are the ones legislating the use of ethanol and firing money at it at an alarming rate.  

   

MSN this past week had a write up on the new Tesla electric super car...  Yes Virginia there is an electric super car!  1-60 times less than 4 sec a range of 225 mi. and a top end regulated to 125 mph..  Recharge times are in the ten hour envelope.  Cost of operation is around 0.03/mi.!  0 emmisions and unfortunately 0 noise too.  The thing is this car can take care of better than 90 % of automobile use... and this is only the first kick at the cat!  

   

I'm not going into the discussion of whether or not to fly on ethanol.  It is enough to say that the brain dead louts who are shoving ethanol fuel down our collective throats are the same morons who decided we must drive/boat/fly on their fuel.    

   

If ethanol was god's gift to the infernal combustion engine then they wouldn’t have to legislate its use...  In fact they would be able to tax the snot out of it.  Be sure if the electric or fuel cell car becomes popular they will find a way to tax it too.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Noel, But others will say that HHO generators are the way to go. Who knows?

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Dave have you ever tested your fuel to confirm that it in fact actually does

have eth in it??  With the cost of eth and it's handling I wouldn't be

surprised if there aren't more than a few pumps out there marked E10 that

are actually E0.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

I'm one of them... except with reservations...  HHO is a dangerous mixture of gas to try to store!  Production isn't over unity so burning it in a car probably won't affect your gas mileage...except (again)... you are introducing more oxygen into the combustion chamber so you may get more bang out of your gas.  

   

I think HHO has proven to be of some value for cutting metal with a torch where extreme high temps are needed in very localized areas.  

   

Hydrogen gas and a cloth plane... shades of the Zepplin!!  J  

   

Noel  

   

   

   

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Hey Noel, Dave,

         Would you please take the alternative energy discussion off-line. It's interesting but not yet on-topic. (Unless someone with a HHO or electric Kitfox wants to pipe up.)



 Thanks,



 Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



 

 At 12:58 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]I'm one of them... except with reservations...  HHO is a dangerous mixture of gas to try to store!  Production isn't over unity so burning it in a car probably won't affect your gas mileage...except (again)... you are introducing more oxygen into the combustion chamber so you may get more bang out of your gas.

  

 I think HHO has proven to be of some value for cutting metal with a torch where extreme high temps are needed in very localized areas.

  

 Hydrogen gas and a cloth plane... shades of the Zepplin!!  J

  

 Noel

  

 [b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

temco(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Guy  

   

In addition to taking the alt energy off the list EVERYONE should be reminded of the DO NOT ARCHIVE requirement for the fluff items so that when a person wants to search the archives, one needn’t go through all this useless fluff, which are just personal opinions on meaningless items not pertaining to building or flying a Kitfox.  

   

Do Not Archive  

   

Ted Palamarek  

KF IV/912  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

 Sent: September 8, 2008 10:07 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip  

  

   

Hey Noel, Dave,

         Would you please take the alternative energy discussion off-line. It's interesting but not yet on-topic. (Unless someone with a HHO or electric Kitfox wants to pipe up.)

 

 Thanks,

 

 Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

 

 

 At 12:58 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote:

 

   

I'm one of them... except with reservations...  HHO is a dangerous mixture of gas to try to store!  Production isn't over unity so burning it in a car probably won't affect your gas mileage...except (again)... you are introducing more oxygen into the combustion chamber so you may get more bang out of your gas.

  

 I think HHO has proven to be of some value for cutting metal with a torch where extreme high temps are needed in very localized areas.

  

 Hydrogen gas and a cloth plane... shades of the Zepplin!!  J

  

 Noel

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip

Ok I finally tested some gas today. 

I put in about 1 " of water into a container and  added about 10 " of regular pump gas and the water level increased right away about 1/2" . I thine shook it and let it settle - now i has 2 " of water , shook it again and got a bit more .   So there you go -- it got ethanol I guess?   



So what does that tell you ?   what ever i been using has caused no issues for me yet. 



Dave 

aka  fuel tester   :- )

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