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george.mueller(at)aurora.
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Slats

Just another data point regarding the question about slats vs vgs, if I was doing it over again, I would: 1) build the wing without slats (adding vgs of course); and 2) build the wing longer. I  didn't like having my slat brackets out in the wind, but I didn't want to cut them completely off either, so I have left about 3/4" of my slat brackets on, and have fabricated a mounting system so I can add the slats back on if I ever want to.  But they will be mostly collecting dust on the the hanger wall. 

 

Other mods that I have done recently:  I added a George Race type towbar fitting to the nosewheel and bought a piper towbar for $50.  I also fabricated a fiberglass cover for the BRS bridle on top of the fuselage.  Before that I just had the bridle covered with leading edge tape, which was starting to come off in places. 

 

My next project is to fabricate strut fairings.  I have looked at different options but I think I will go with making them out of .016 6061-t6. 

 

 

Separately, I get the digest version so I can't selectively delete flicka, so I would vote to ban him if possible.  I am all for diversity of opinion but this horse operates outside the bounds of civil discourse. 

 

 

 

 

George in Milwaukee 

N701GM 42 hours flying

  [quote][b]

jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Slats

>My next project is to fabricate strut fairings.   I have looked >at 

 	  Quote: 	
		  different options but I think I will go with making  them out >of .016 

6061-t6

  
	


 That's what I did. It was quite a bit of work but well  worth it as has been documented here before. When the strut fairings are  combined with the no slats/vg's the plane feels like it's been set free. The  only thing I have found that some might fault is the glide angle is much flatter  of course because the drag is so dramatically reduced but the thing slips so  well with the slab side that it's of no consequence. Rpm/fuel burn/noise/engine  wear/buffet are all down, some dramatically...a vastly improved  airplane.

 Speaking of buffet; there are lots of opportunities for  simple cleanup in the tail area, where it seemed a lot of the airframe  buffet/vibration was coming from on mine. I faired in the nasty pocket under the  rudder leading edge with foam and bondo, and under the HS leading edge with  .016 and of course the VGs under the elevator. What a  difference. 

 All those little cleanups add up to free  fuel.

  

 Joe

  

  

   [quote][b]

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Slats

Joe, Could you post some pictues of the cleanup of the tail area?



Bob Spudis

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Slats

Joe, Could you post some pictues of the cleanup of the tail area?



Bob Spudis

ricklach

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Kernville, Calif.

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Slats

Hi Joe,



I’ve been thinking about cleaning up the tail area where the Rudder, horizontal stabilizer and fuselage come together. It sounds like you have done just that. I would love to see some pictures of what you did and a little more conversation as to the results.  Some people think trying to clean up a box like a 701 is a waste of time, but I think any improvement gained are free performance gains.



Rick

jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Slats

>I would love to see some pictures of what you did and  a >little more conversation

 	  Quote: 	
		  as to the results

  
	


 I will send a few pics to somebody who already knows how  to post  them and they can post them if they like. I'm a little short on  time right now trying to get things together for a trip...who wants  them?

  

 I tried to measure a speed gain with the tail cleanup and  kept getting varying results since it's so small it's hard for me to accurately  measure...the one that came up most often was 2.25 mph IIRC. Not definitive but  indicative. Call it a couple mph...not a whole lot but it adds up and it's  near free and did make it smoother. And it looks better to me and is light. As  far as cleanup on this plane being a waste of time goes...it's SO crudely done  that it can be easily improved. I never consider free speed/efficiency a waste,  personally.

  

 Joe

   [quote][b]

aa9td(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Slats

Joe can you send some  pictures of how you cleaned up the the tail of the 701 Bob aa9td(at)verizon.net (aa9td(at)verizon.net)

  

 [quote]   ---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: Slats

Joe sent me some pictures to try to post. I'll give it my best.

 Bob Spudis

  

  In a message dated 9/5/2008 12:05:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  aa9td(at)verizon.net writes:

 [quote]   Joe can you send    some pictures of how you cleaned up the the tail of the 701 Bob aa9td(at)verizon.net (aa9td(at)verizon.net)

    

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jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Slats

What with all this recent business about slats and  vgs I went back and read some of my flight test notes and ran across what I  consider to be an important point that should be mentioned...it has been posted  here before but I know most don't dig back thru all that old stuff so here it is  again.

 When I installed my VG's I did a WAG and put them  at 12% chord. Well I went out and tried to force it in the air like I had been  able to do with the slats. It got up on its hind legs and ran about 3 or 400  feet before breaking ground. Like a chicken trying to fly. The VGs were  uncovered from the airflow I think. So I moved them to 10% and same thing but  not quite as long a run before getting airborne. So I moved them to 8% and thats  where they are now and will stay. I haven't been able to uncover them at 8%.  Works good.

 The point of all this drivel is if you decide to go  VGs be sure and flight test them to see what you've got before stuffing it in  some place where you need a max effort to get out...the placement is important  for them to work properly...and 8% might not be the magic number for your bird.  Test it.

  

 Joe

   [quote][b]

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Slats

Isn't it a problem to move them?   The ones I have use a double sided 

tape, once stuck, they are stuck.   Seems like it would be a pretty good 

job to take them up and relocate them without tearing them up, plus more 

tape.  Are we talking about the same VGs?  Larry N1345L



Joe Spencer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What with all this recent business about slats and vgs I went back and read some of my flight test notes and ran across what I consider to be an important point that should be mentioned...it has been posted here before but I know most don't dig back thru all that old stuff so here it is again.

 When I installed my VG's I did a WAG and put them at 12% chord. Well I went out and tried to force it in the air like I had been able to do with the slats. It got up on its hind legs and ran about 3 or 400 feet before breaking ground. Like a chicken trying to fly. The VGs were uncovered from the airflow I think. So I moved them to 10% and same thing but not quite as long a run before getting airborne. So I moved them to 8% and thats where they are now and will stay. I haven't been able to uncover them at 8%. Works good.

 The point of all this drivel is if you decide to go VGs be sure and flight test them to see what you've got before stuffing it in some place where you need a max effort to get out...the placement is important for them to work properly...and 8% might not be the magic number for your bird. Test it.



 Joe

   

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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Slats

Thats interesting, kinda like what Chris said happens on a 701 with slats, on his Slats vs VG page. I wonder if he just gave up on the idea with out further testing?



Kevin



[quote="jpspencer(at)cableone.net"]

 When I installed my VG's I did a WAG and put them  at 12% chord. Well I went out and tried to force it in the air like I had been  able to do with the slats. It got up on its hind legs and ran about 3 or 400  feet before breaking ground. Like a 

  

 Joe

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
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"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: Slats

Yep 12% is way to far  back.  That's why I recommend 7% to the front tips.  Seldom any  problems from being to far forward, but to far back the stall is happening in  front of them.

  

 JG

 [quote]   ---

jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: Slats

>Isn't it a problem to move them?   The ones  I have use a double sided 

 	  Quote: 	
		  tape, once stuck, they are stuck.    Seems like it would be a pretty good 

job to take them up and relocate  them without tearing them up, plus more 

tape.  Are we talking about  the same VGs?  Larry N1345L

  
	


 I have the ones from JG. They use a 3M double  sided tape that is easily(sort of) removed. It takes me about 2 hours to  remove and replace them.

  

 Joe

 

   [quote][b]

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Slats

That's what I have too.  It does seems like after twice it wouldn't be 

very good.  I don't think I will have that problem, thanks to you and 

this list.  Larry N1345L

Joe Spencer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Isn't it a problem to move them?   The ones I have use a double sided 

> tape, once stuck, they are stuck.   Seems like it would be a pretty good 

> job to take them up and relocate them without tearing them up, plus more 

> tape.  Are we talking about the same VGs?  Larry N1345L

>     

 I have the ones from JG. They use a 3M double sided tape that is easily(sort of) removed. It takes me about 2 hours to remove and replace them.

 Joe

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jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Slats

>That's what I have too.  It does seems like after  twice it >wouldn't be 

 	  Quote: 	
		  very good

  
	


 Larry

 I replaced the adhesive on mine each time I moved them.  Got more from JG but it should be available here somewhere.

  

 Joe

   [quote][b]

vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Slats

That 3M adhesive is an  industrial product and I have to buy in $200 lots.  Someone in Canada tried  to get it from 3M there and had the same problem.  Anyone needing more  of it, just contact me and I'll send more, no charge.

 JG

 www.stolspeed.com 

 [quote]   ---

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Slats

If Zenith is going to be stocking your VG's it  would seem they would be the logical spot to go to for extra tape in N.  America  huh?

  

 John

 [quote]   ---

bobkat(at)btinet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: slats

I still don't seem to be able to post but will try  it again.

 Is it possible for someone thoroughly familiar with  the g;ohjy vjstsvyrtodtovd pg yr 701 to fly the plane with slats on one side and  slats removed wand VG's on the other.

 I coubt it would be dangerous for an experienced  pilot but might be enlightening. 

 A friend did it with those drooping wing tips on a  kitfox and found absolutely no difference in takeoff, yaw, lift,  etc.

   [quote][b]

vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: slats

[quote] ---

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