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tc1917(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: LSA

I may be wrong here, correct me please, but I was under the impression that 

an AP-1 rating was a lesser rating than AP-2.  In other words, if you had an 

AP-2, you were qualified in tail dragger AND nose wheel.  You were stepping 

up a notch.  Same as if you are rated for over 87 knots, you were 

automatically qualified for the lesser of the ratings.  Any other way of 

interpreting it would be ridiculous.  That would be like saying a truck 

driver could not drive a car!!!! OR if you had an IFR rating, you could not 

fly VFR.  (been wrong before)  Ted Cowan, Alabama, Slingshot, AP-2.  See you 

at the homecoming.

By the way, I will be offering a $50 reward (cash money) to anyone who can 

solve my resonance problem on my 912.  It doenst change RPM just makes this 

horrible rumm rumm rumm which changes in volumn at higher RPM but not 

frequency.  Not in the carbs.  See ya.  Ted

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: LSA

> By the way, I will be offering a $50 reward (cash money) to anyone who 

can

 	  Quote: 	
		   solve my resonance problem on my 912.  It doenst change RPM just makes 

 this horrible rumm rumm rumm which changes in volumn at higher RPM but not 

 frequency.  Not in the carbs.  See ya.  Ted


	




Morning Ted:



I need $50.00.



Does it do it when tied down, doing a static runup?



Did you close the rear windows?



Is the fabric tight on top of the wings, inboard near the engine?



Did you check gear box to see if it was shimmed correctly?



Has anyone else had this problem with a SS and 912?



Has anyone else had this problem with SS and other engine combinations?



Has anyone else had this problem with other aircraft and engine 

combinations?



Dan Horton's 3/4 scale Jenny with 3 cyl Suzuki engine did this.  Never did 

figure out why it did it.



Ronnie Collins SS did it.  Fabric had been rib stitched by builder. 

Stitches were failing on top of wings inboard near the engine.  Caused by 

drumming from prop.



I have heard some belt drive systems do this.  Dan used a belt and Ronnie 

was flying with a 582.



Still working on my first cup of coffee, and my mind is not working yet. 





See ya at the Homecoming.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: LSA

[quote="John Hauck

Still working on my first cup of coffee, and my mind is not working yet. 



john h

mkIII[/quote]



It sounds like you are getting pretty close to that 50 bucks already !!!  This brings a question to mind John, did you pick up much speed when you put the rear fairing on the fuselage in flat vertical area in front of the prop ?  I am still trying to figure out how you cruise so fast.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: LSA

> It sounds like you are getting pretty close to that 50 bucks already !!! 

This brings a question to mind John, did you pick up much speed when you put 

the rear fairing on the fuselage in flat vertical area in front of the prop 

?  I am still trying to figure out how you cruise so fast.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	




Mike B:



Thought I cruised fast until John W put the 912S on his Kolbra.  Then he 

blew me away.



 I don't know if that rear fairing helped or not.  Looks better if nothing 

else.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: LSA

On my MK-3,I loaded up the center section facing the inner steel wing rib with contact foam insulation cut to match the airfoil shape of the wing..Also the inside of the center section ends.Then both sides of the spar carry through and the top inner surface of the overhead plexiglass. All with 1/2 " denso foam sound absorbing foam.I think the noise comes from the wing skins and resonates thru the center section..I bought a half acre of that foam and stuck it everywhere I think it might even have helped some..

---

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Re: LSA

 	  tc1917(at)bellsouth.net wrote: 	
		  I may be wrong here, correct me please, but I was under the impression that 

an AP-1 rating was a lesser rating than AP-2.  In other words, if you had an 

AP-2, you were qualified in tail dragger AND nose wheel.  You were stepping 

up a notch.  Same as if you are rated for over 87 knots, you were 

automatically qualified for the lesser of the ratings.  Any other way of 

interpreting it would be ridiculous.  	




Ted:



For Sport Pilot, no "ranking" of LSA sets.  The practical test for Sport Pilot gets you a set endorsement for the aircraft used.  Have to do additional work for the others you want/need.  Differences in handling characteristics is the reason given for the additional requirement(s).  



From the FARs.......



Sec. 61.323



How do I obtain privileges to operate a make and model of light-sport aircraft in the same category and class within a different set of aircraft? 



If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate a make and model of light-sport aircraft in the same category and class but within a different set of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft for which you have received an endorsement, you must- 

(a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a make and model of light-sport aircraft that is within the same set of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft you intend to operate; 

(b) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who provided you with the aircraft specific training specified in paragraph (a) of this section certifying you are proficient to operate the specific make and model of light-sport aircraft.

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: LSA

George Alexander wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 tc1917(at)bellsouth.net wrote:

> I may be wrong here, correct me please, but I was under the impression that 

> an AP-1 rating was a lesser rating than AP-2.  In other words, if you had an 

> AP-2, you were qualified in tail dragger AND nose wheel.  You were stepping 

> up a notch.  Same as if you are rated for over 87 knots, you were 

> automatically qualified for the lesser of the ratings.  Any other way of 

> interpreting it would be ridiculous.  

>     

 Ted:

 For Sport Pilot, no "ranking" of LSA sets.  The practical test for Sport Pilot gets you a set endorsement for the aircraft used.  Have to do additional work for the others you want/need.  Differences in handling characteristics is the reason given for the additional requirement(s).  

 >From the FARs.......

 Sec. 61.323

 How do I obtain privileges to operate a make and model of light-sport aircraft in the same category and class within a different set of aircraft? 

 If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate a make and model of light-sport aircraft in the same category and class but within a different set of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft for which you have received an endorsement, you must- 

 (a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a make and model of light-sport aircraft that is within the same set of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft you intend to operate; 

 (b) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who provided you with the aircraft specific training specified in paragraph (a) of this section certifying you are proficient to operate the specific make and model of light-sport aircraft.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://gtalexander.home.att.

George,

If I understand you correctly, if I were to get certified as a Sport 

Pilot in an Aeronca then I would only be allowed to fly that type of 

plane?  What does that do to those that have transitioned from a GA 

licenses to Sport Pilot.  Are they then restricted to only flying their 

current aircraft type?  I know of two individuals that have transitioned 

to Sport Pilot and was wondering how it would affect them. 

I'm having second thoughts about Sport Pilot certification if that is 

the restriction.

Terry -  FireFly  #95

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: LSA

Terry



I have my PPL and have been flying for under Sport Pilot for three years 

since I let my medical lapse. Because of my higher rating I can fly any LSA 

airplane even the faster LSA airplanes. I would get training if I were to 

fly something different but I'm not required to.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Re: LSA

[quote="tkrolfe(at)toast.net"]George Alexander wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 tc1917(at)bellsouth.net wrote:

   

<<<<SNIP>>>>

If I understand you correctly, if I were to get certified as a Sport 

Pilot in an Aeronca then I would only be allowed to fly that type of 

plane?  What does that do to those that have transitioned from a GA 

licenses to Sport Pilot.  Are they then restricted to only flying their 

current aircraft type?  I know of two individuals that have transitioned 

to Sport Pilot and was wondering how it would affect them. 



I'm having second thoughts about Sport Pilot certification if that is 

the restriction.



Terry -  FireFly  #95 	




Terry:

My understanding is what Rick Neilsen said....

Said another way....  a person who has a PPL/GA Ticket can fly LSA equivalent of that he was signed off for as a private.  They do NOT become a Sport Pilot.  They continue to hold the GA Ticket and if their medical lapsed they can fly aircraft in LSA as long as they have a valid driver license.

If they hold a private with a tail wheel endorsement, they can fly a Savage (>87 KTS Vh TW); a CT (> 87 KTS Vh tri-gear); a Firefly (<87 KTS Vh TW) or a QS (<87KTS Vh tri-gear).

Oh, do we miss John W.

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: LSA

At 07:08 AM 9/6/2008, Ted Cowan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...It doenst change RPM just makes this horrible rumm rumm rumm which 

changes in volumn at higher RPM but not frequency.  Not in the carbs...


	


Does it sound like a twin engine plane whose throttles aren't quite 

synchronized?  I get that in my Ultrastar, too, around cruise rpm.  My 

theory is that it's caused by the exhaust pulse impinging or reflecting off 

a prop blade, depending on where the blade is at the moment of the exhaust 

pulse.  If the redrive is an exact ratio with no slip (mine is 2:1, but 

effectively slightly more since all belt drives slip a little) then there 

wouldn't any variation in the noise since the blade would always be in the 

same place.



-Dana



--

  Politicians and diapers have one thing in common.  They should both be 

changed regularly, and for the same reason.

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: LSA

George Alexander wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 [quote="tkrolfe(at)toast.net"]George Alexander wrote:



   

>  

>  tc1917(at)bellsouth.net wrote:

>    

>

> If I understand you correctly, if I were to get certified as a Sport 

> Pilot in an Aeronca then I would only be allowed to fly that type of 

> plane?  What does that do to those that have transitioned from a GA 

> licenses to Sport Pilot.  Are they then restricted to only flying their 

> current aircraft type?  I know of two individuals that have transitioned 

> to Sport Pilot and was wondering how it would affect them. 

>

> I'm having second thoughts about Sport Pilot certification if that is 

> the restriction.

>

> Terry -  FireFly  #95

>     

 Terry:

 My understanding is what Rick Neilsen said....

 Said another way....  a person who has a PPL/GA Ticket can fly LSA equivalent of that he was signed off for as a private.  They do NOT become a Sport Pilot.  They continue to hold the GA Ticket and if their medical lapsed they can fly aircraft in LSA as long as they have a valid driver license.

 If they hold a private with a tail wheel endorsement, they can fly a Savage (>87 KTS Vh TW); a CT (> 87 KTS Vh tri-gear); a Firefly (



 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://gtalexander.home.att.ne

George, Rick,
	




Thanks for the clarification!



Terry -  FireFly #95

cedavis

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Malvern, PA

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: LSA

I think I'm one of the 2 individuals Terry mentions...

The key section from the relevant  CFR George quoted is:  

  > (a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor

  in a make and model of light-sport aircraft that is within the same set of aircraft

  as the make and model of aircraft you intend to operate;

Here's an FAA link to the "Sets"  http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/aircraft_sets.pdf

So, I have an AP-5, ASEL tricycle gear over 87kts (earned in an Evektor Sportstar).   However, this would not allow me to fly my Firefly, which is AP-2, ASEL Tailwheel under 87kts.  However, with a tail wheel endorsement Aeronca Champ, I can legally fly the Firefly.

The problem I have is that the local FBO sold the Champ, and I'll need a bi-annual soon.  Technically, you could take the flight test "ground observed" in a single place ELSA (I do not know of anyone who did).  Does any one know if the flight portion of the bi-annual can be done in a single place?  

Chuck Davis

Firefly N7057K

Time: 09:10:18 AM PST US

 From: TK <tkrolfe(at)toast.net (tkrolfe(at)toast.net)>

 Subject: Re: Re: LSA

 George Alexander wrote:

 >

 >

 > tc1917(at)bellsouth.net wrote:

 >

 >> I may be wrong here, correct me please, but I was under the impression that

 >> an AP-1 rating was a lesser rating than AP-2.  In other words, if you had an

 >> AP-2, you were qualified in tail dragger AND nose wheel.  You were stepping

 >> up a notch.  Same as if you are rated for over 87 knots, you were

 >> automatically qualified for the lesser of the ratings.  Any other way of

 >> interpreting it would be ridiculous.

 >>

 >

 >

 > Ted:

 >

 > For Sport Pilot, no "ranking" of LSA sets.  The practical test for Sport Pilot

 gets you a set endorsement for the aircraft used.  Have to do additional work

 for the others you want/need.  Differences in handling characteristics is the

 reason given for the additional requirement(s).

 >

 > >From the FARs.......

 >

 > Sec. 61.323

 >

 > How do I obtain privileges to operate a make and model of light-sport aircraft

 in the same category and class within a different set of aircraft?

 >

 > If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek to operate a make and model of

 light-sport aircraft in the same category and class but within a different set

 of aircraft as the make and model of aircraft for which you have received an

 endorsement, you must-

 > (a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor

 in a make and model of light-sport aircraft that is within the same set of aircraft

 as the make and model of aircraft you intend to operate;

 > (b) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who provided

 you with the aircraft specific training specified in paragraph (a) of this section

 certifying you are proficient to operate the specific make and model of

 light-sport aircraft.

 >

 > --------

 > George Alexander

 > FS II R503  N709FS

 > http://gtalexander.home.att.

 >

 George,

 If I understand you correctly, if I were to get certified as a Sport

 Pilot in an Aeronca then I would only be allowed to fly that type of

 plane?  What does that do to those that have transitioned from a GA

 licenses to Sport Pilot.  Are they then restricted to only flying their

 current aircraft type?  I know of two individuals that have transitioned

 to Sport Pilot and was wondering how it would affect them.

 I'm having second thoughts about Sport Pilot certification if that is

 the restriction.

 Terry -  FireFly  #95

  [quote][b]

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: LSA

I can't quote verse and scripture, but I don't think it's allowed for the biannual.



On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Charles Davis <ceddavis(at)gmail.com (ceddavis(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The problem I have is that the local FBO sold the Champ, and I'll need a bi-annual soon.  Technically, you could take the flight test "ground observed" in a single place ELSA (I do not know of anyone who did).  Does any one know if the flight portion of the bi-annual can be done in a single place?  

  

Chuck Davis

Firefly N7057K



	
 

  [quote][b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: LSA

 	  cedavis wrote: 	
		  

 

<<<<SNIP>>>>

The problem I have is that the local FBO sold the Champ, and I'll need a bi-annual soon.  Technically, you could take the flight test "ground observed" in a single place ELSA (I do not know of anyone who did).  Does any one know if the flight portion of the bi-annual can be done in a single place?  

 

Chuck Davis

Firefly N7057K



<<<<SNIP>>>>



	




Chuck:

Don't think the flight instruction portion of the review is allowed in a single place.  Beyond the single place issue, don't think it matters what a/c you use.  As long as the instructor is willing..... Not even sure it has to be LSA.

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: LSA

Chuck Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Technically, you could take the flight

 test "ground

 observed" in a single place ELSA (I do not know of

 anyone who did).  Does

 any one know if the flight portion of the bi-annual can be

 done in a single

 place?

 


	


I took my practical flight test in my single seat ELSA Maxair Drifter, with the examiner observing from the ground. Now that my bi-annual is coming up, I have checked with EAA and the FAA and have been told that the bi-annual MUST be taken in a two-seater with the examiner...because the bi-annual is meant to be for instruction, not a test.  If John W. were still with us, he could quote the regs.  



Arty Trost

Maxair Drifter

Sandy, Oregon

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: LSA

If John W. were still with us, he could quote the regs.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Arty Trost


	




Arty T:



And you could get your BFR in his Kolbra,in the SE corner of Oregon.



Another week until time for Kolb Homecoming.  Hope the huricanes leave us 

alone long enough to fly up and back in peace...



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: LSA

Hi All,



        I believe the term you're searching for is biennial (every other 

year).  Biannual is twice a year. (Looked it up in the Funk & Wagnall's just 

to be sure).



Ed in JXN

MkII/503



Do not archive.





 	  Quote: 	
		   cedavis wrote:

>

> The problem I have is that the local FBO sold the Champ, and I'll need a 

> bi-annual soon.  Technically, you could take the flight test "ground 

> observed" in a single place ELSA (I do not know of anyone who did).  Does 

> any one know if the flight portion of the bi-annual can be done in a 

> single place?

>

> Chuck Davis

> Firefly N7057K

>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3476#203476

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: LSA

A key to understanding which airplanes/sets and in which airspace a Sport Pilot can legally fly in, is the required endorsements list, which is in the FAA Advisory Circular AC 61.65e which is found on-line in .pdf format at http://tinyurl.com/6ha28m .



After downloading this file, go to the 25th page in this document where Appendix 1. begins. The second section (12-21) of this appendix lists the Endorsements a Student Pilot Seeking Sport Pilot Certificate must have for various privileges. The third section (22-29) lists the Endorsements a Sport Pilot must have to gain legal flying access to aircraft with Vh faster than 87knots, operations to/from towered controlled airports and in controlled airspace, etc. Notice that this appendix listing also references the specific FARs.



This AC 61-65e plus the LSA SETS referenced before in this thread pretty much spells out the requirements, though there a few things that are still open to interpretation. For example: If a Sport Pilot is trained in and passes his check ride in an LSA with faster than 87knots Vh (i.e. gets the >87kts endorsement), can s/he fly a slower than 87knot aircraft of the same type? My interpretation, which agrees with the interpretation of the Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) who gave me my CFI-SP check ride, is that the faster than 87knot endorsement qualifies a Sport Pilot to fly the slower ones of the same type but not vice versa. 



I hope this helps a bit.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: LSA

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  



<<<<SNIP>>>>



This AC 61-65e plus the LSA SETS referenced before in this thread pretty much spells out the requirements, though there a few things that are still open to interpretation. For example: If a Sport Pilot is trained in and passes his check ride in an LSA with faster than 87knots Vh (i.e. gets the >87kts endorsement), can s/he fly a slower than 87knot aircraft of the same type? My interpretation, which agrees with the interpretation of the Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) who gave me my CFI-SP check ride, is that the faster than 87knot endorsement qualifies a Sport Pilot to fly the slower ones of the same type but not vice versa. 



	




Thom:



Can't say with absolute certainty, but I believe I remember right that this interpretation differs from what I was given by the DPE who gave me my SP check ride.



Sec 61.323 (and 61.319) seem pretty clear that you need an endorsement for any set that you want to operate in, no matter what other(s) you may have.



Could be wrong..... wouldn't be the first time.



My $.02

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: LSA

George,



I agree with your reading of the quoted FARs... it is pretty clear.



Perhaps what I should have said is that the way it will probably(my

opinion) be enforced (if it can be policed at all) is the way that I

described. In General Aviation (before Rec Pilot and now Sport Pilot)

there has been a de facto "ranking", and that is the basis for my

belief that this SP rule may be enforced (again, if it is possible to

do so) with this ranking legacy and mentality.



When I learned to fly a tail wheel airplane (PA-11), there was no such

thing as a "tail wheel" endorsement. When I learned to fly a Mooney,

there was no such thing as a "complex" endorsement, neither was their

a "high performance" endorsement. These came about later and resulted

in a de facto ranking system. Although the 61.300 series FARS that

deal with Sport Pilots seems to eliminate that for this Airman

Certificate, there is a move underway to "normalize" the Sport Pilot

regs to be more like the pre-Sport Pilot airman regs. Time will tell

if the regs actually change to reflect this.



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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