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aviateer

Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 23

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: Jabiru

I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912?

  

 I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine and I am considering the Jabiru.

  

  

 Thanks



  [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Jabiru

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Kirk Martenson [aviateer(at)gmail.com]

 I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does

 anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912?


	


.. you've just opened a can of worms, Kirk! 

Before I bought my Jabiru, I saw a nice British comparison done on two identical Rans and it looks like the two engines are pretty much a good bargain. The Jabiru is simpler and appeals to those who feel that less is more. The only drawback is that you'll need to modify your cowling. As for any water-cooled engine, the forming of the cowling and air chamber inside it, is essential. As for the small performance details, I'll leave it to others with ditigal gauges on each cylinders to answer here. 

After 260 hours, I am still pleased with my Jabiru 2200.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Jabiru

I have a Jabiru in my Avid MK IV.  Takeoff performance is no better than the 582 it replaced.  cruise speed is about 10 MPH faster than the 582. Fuel burn per hour is not much better than the 582 at 75 percent power.  I have never flown in an Avid or Kitfox with a 912 C but everything I read C and from those I've talked to about the 912 performance says it is better than what I've experienced with my Jabiru.  I'm running a fixed pitched 2 blade 64" prop on my Jabiru.  A 912  probably will run a 3 blade 68" (or more).  And it will be ground adjustable besides C so if you want better cruise or better takeoff C you can just adjust the prop to suit C or if you go with an inflight adjustable you can have both with the flip of a switch and on the same flight no less.  On the Jabiru C tradeing takeoff for cruise or vice-versa will cost you another $500 or so for a different prop and the hassle of changeing it.  I would stick with the 912 C especially being you are all ready set up for it.  Just my 2 cents worth C  Jim Chuk

Avid MK IV flying C  Kitfox 4 (with 912) building   Mn



Date: Wed C 10 Sep 2008 07:51:19 -0500From: aviateer(at)gmail.comTo: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Jabiru



I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912?

 

I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine and I am considering the Jabiru.

 

 

Thanks



_________________________________________________________________

Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Jabiru

Kirk,



For all the Rotax guys, could you comment on the sickness?



Lowell



do not archive

---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

There is no comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912-S.  It takes a heavy, 6 cylinder, 120 horsepower Jabiru to get the same performance as the 100 HP Rotax 912-S, at the expense of a much increased fuel burn.  The Rotax 912-S is a much better, more reliable engine design.  If you study performance of aircraft with these two engines, the Rotax 912-S wins hands down.   The Rotax 912-S is more complicated than the Jabiru to install, but I am willing to do the work to end up with a better performing and more reliable plane.



The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft manufactured today use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine.  There is a very good reason for this.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Jabiru

Lowell



Continental has a new version of the O-200.  It is being used in Cessnas new sport light offering.  I would be looking into that one if I were building a K- IV.  I believe that in the long run, it would be cheaper and safer, and then more fun.



Duane

--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Jabiru

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: JetPilot [orcabonita(at)hotmail.com]

 The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft manufactured today 

 use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine. There is a very good reason for this.


	


.. okay, I understand now why there are wars in the world!

You know what, Mike? Let's all buy only Rotax, Microsoft and Jeppesen! Let's screw Jabiru, Apple and PocketFMS! Let the formers be the sole providers and take whatever they want! Competition is sooooo .... anti-American! Anyway, who is stupid enough to think that an air-cooled, direct drive boxer engine has anything to do with aviation? Stupid Aussies!



Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Jabiru

Could part of the reason be that the R engine has been out longer?  

MUCH longer?

Check the stats for Australia.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...short block assembled; waiting for heads

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Sep 10, 2008, at 10:30 AM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 There is no comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912-S.  It  

 takes a heavy, 6 cylinder, 120 horsepower Jabiru to get the same  

 performance as the 100 HP Rotax 912-S, at the expense of a much  

 increased fuel burn.  The Rotax 912-S is a much better, more  

 reliable engine design.  If you study performance of aircraft with  

 these two engines, the Rotax 912-S wins hands down.   The Rotax 912- 

 S is more complicated than the Jabiru to install, but I am willing  

 to do the work to end up with a better performing and more reliable  

 plane.



 The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft  

 manufactured today use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine.   

 There is a very good reason for this.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3585#203585

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: Jabiru

Michel,



 	  Quote: 	
		  You know what, Mike? Let's all buy only Rotax, Microsoft and Jeppesen!


	


I think what Mike meant is that the 912 is very popular because it is 

a strong product (he did admit that 20% don't use it right? . 

Every decision we make when designing and building airplanes entails 

a series of compromises, both technical and financial--there is no 

absolutely right or wrong choice for everyone.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

[quote="Michel"] 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Competition is sooooo .... anti-American! 



	




I love to see competition, maybe one day it will get the engine manufacturers off their collective arses and start putting Fuel Injection systems on them !  Fuel injection has only been used on the majority of cars for like 30 years now.   I really like the BMW motorcycle engine, fuel injected, 2 cylinder, air cooled, very smooth running, light, and 105 HP.  They are putting the BMW's  on Trikes with great success, but I don't know if they would last for many hours at high power settings like we would need in an airplane.  



Thank god for the Aussies, I love them, without the Jabiru my Rotax 912-S would have probably cost me 30,000 instead of 20,000 dollars.  



Lycoming has some neat experimental class fuel injected engines in the 115 HP range that would be a bit heavy, but probably really great motors.



I do think Duane has the best idea of all, the new Continental will probably be better, more trouble free, and more reliable than any of our other engine options.  Now I just need to find a way to come up with another 25 grand    



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: Jabiru

That engine weighs 100 lb more then a 912ULS C if you want a one place Model IV C go for it.

  

 Clint



[quote] From: ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wed C 10 Sep 2008 09:05:19 -0700

 Subject: RE: Jabiru

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb C Duane" <ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu>

 

 Lowell

 

 Continental has a new version of the O-200. It is being used in Cessnas new sport light offering. I would be looking into that one if I were building a K- IV. I believe that in the long run C it would be cheaper and safer C and then more fun.

 

 Duane

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Jabiru

How heavy is it?



Whaddya mean "more fun"...you ain't HAD fun 'til you've put 'er into  

a wheat field!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled; waiting for new ignition system

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Sep 10, 2008, at 12:05 PM, Rueb, Duane wrote:



[quote] 

 <ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu>



 Lowell



 Continental has a new version of the O-200.  It is being used in  

 Cessnas new sport light offering.  I would be looking into that one  

 if I were building a K- IV.  I believe that in the long run, it  

 would be cheaper and safer, and then more fun.



 Duane

 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru

Here is some research I did when deciding which engine I would put on my Series 7 for those who are interested.



Rotax

912s    141 lbs   $19,373

914     166 lbs   $31,413 (Thank goodness I didn't pay that much!)



Jabiru

2200  132 lbs   $13,900

3300  178 lbs   $18,400



Continental (TMX Experimental)

0-200    215lbs w/o exhaust  $19,435

IO-240  240 lbs w/o exhaust  $20,135 (they also offer a FADEC version which is injected and computer controlled...very cool but $27,888.



I ended up going with the 914 because I wanted the best performance throughout my flight envelope and this engine fit the bill the best.  I really like the Jabiru but the fact that it can't swing nearly as big a prop would have limited my climb more than I had wanted.  The Continentals are simply too heavy for me.  I think for a IV the continental should not even be an option due to the weight.  I know people have done it but I would stay away from it.



I am glad that decision is over...that had to be the hardest one I made throughout the process!



As for performance...I don't think I could touch my 914 with any other engine.  I have seen as high as 1800 ft./min climb and have not hit Vx yet as the angle is uncomfortably steep.  Cruise I get 118 to 120 TAS at 6000' (at) 5000 rpm and 30" MAP (5000 and 31" is 75%).  I suspect the speed will increase 5 mph or so when I get the stabilizer adjustment covers on.  I think I could increase it another 5 mph if I got rid of my 850s and added all the strut fairings but I like the tires and I am sick of building so they will have to wait.  The best part is that because of the turbo, above 12,500' (I fly from a 4500' field elevation) I am faster than my buddies 182 and I can still slow it down like a Kitfox should for landing....I love these planes!

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Good info.  Thanks Darin.

Deke

do not archive



---

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Kirk 

 

Difficult for me to give you a subjective comparison as although I have flown in the 912 Kitfox I have only owned the Jab2200 version and the 582 version. 

 

I will give you some of my figures and maybe you can make your own comparison: 

 

Plane                Classic 4 

MT Weight        #645 

Engine                Jabiru2200 (Latest version Solid lifter) 

TBO                2,000 Hrs 

 

All performance figures with 3/4 Tanks (18 Imp Galls) and No passenger 

22 deg C. ambient 

 

Climb rate WOT                        1000 - 1100ft/min] 

Cruise (2850 rpm)                105 mph 

Fuel consumption at Cruise        3 Galls (Imp) - 3.7 Galls (US) 

 

Pros -  

 

Compact Light weight engine 

Air cooled - No hoses or radiators 

Direct drive / low revving engine - No Gearbox 

Excellent fuel consumption 

Runs 100LL or Mogas 

Price and component parts pricing much more cost effective than Rotax. 

Sound !!!!!! 

 

Cons 

 

Must use fixed pitch prop (to date) which limits diameter you can run. 

 

Both engines are great and I think the application and also availability of service nearby would be the deciding factor for me 

 

 

 

 

Take off  RPM 3050 



 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"Kirk Martenson" <aviateer(at)gmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

10/09/2008 10:30 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Jabiru 

     

 

 

 

I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? 

  

I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine and I am considering the Jabiru. 

  

  

Thanks 



 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

  

 [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Jabiru

This has started an interesting debate - once again 

 

When I first looked at the 912 and the 912S just about everybody with the 912S installation was having problems with cracking engine mounts and mufflers due to the high compression and resultant vicious start and stop sequence. I think the clutch was added to address this but not sure. 

 

On that basis in Canada there was a swing back to the 912. 

 

If you look at the Australian market where there is a strong service base for the Jabiru engines the percentage of ownership is the reverse of the numbers you are stating.  

 

Like I said - both great engines 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

11/09/2008 12:10 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Jabiru 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

 

 There is no comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912-S.  It takes a heavy, 6 cylinder, 120 horsepower Jabiru to get the same performance as the 100 HP Rotax 912-S, at the expense of a much increased fuel burn.  The Rotax 912-S is a much better, more reliable engine design.  If you study performance of aircraft with these two engines, the Rotax 912-S wins hands down.   The Rotax 912-S is more complicated than the Jabiru to install, but I am willing to do the work to end up with a better performing and more reliable plane.

 

 The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft manufactured today use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine.  There is a very good reason for this.

 

 Mike

 

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

 

 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3585#203585

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Jeez Now I want a 914 - sounds like the perfect combo! 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Jab2200 Classic 4

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

11/09/2008 08:38 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Jabiru 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

 

 Here is some research I did when deciding which engine I would put on my Series 7 for those who are interested.

 

 Rotax

 912s    141 lbs   $19,373

 914     166 lbs   $31,413 (Thank goodness I didn't pay that much!)

 

 Jabiru

 2200  132 lbs   $13,900

 3300  178 lbs   $18,400

 

 Continental (TMX Experimental)

 0-200    215lbs w/o exhaust  $19,435

 IO-240  240 lbs w/o exhaust  $20,135 (they also offer a FADEC version which is injected and computer controlled...very cool but $27,888.

 

 I ended up going with the 914 because I wanted the best performance throughout my flight envelope and this engine fit the bill the best.  I really like the Jabiru but the fact that it can't swing nearly as big a prop would have limited my climb more than I had wanted.  The Continentals are simply too heavy for me.  I think for a IV the continental should not even be an option due to the weight.  I know people have done it but I would stay away from it.

 

 I am glad that decision is over...that had to be the hardest one I made throughout the process!

 

 As for performance...I don't think I could touch my 914 with any other engine.  I have seen as high as 1800 ft./min climb and have not hit Vx yet as the angle is uncomfortably steep.  Cruise I get 118 to 120 TAS at 6000' (at) 5000 rpm and 30" MAP (5000 and 31" is 75%).  I suspect the speed will increase 5 mph or so when I get the stabilizer adjustment covers on.  I think I could increase it another 5 mph if I got rid of my 850s and added all the strut fairings but I like the tires and I am sick of building so they will have to wait.  The best part is that because of the turbo, above 12,500' (I fly from a 4500' field elevation) I am faster than my buddies 182 and I can still slow it down like a Kitfox should for landing....I love these planes!

 

 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing)

 914 Turbo

 Kaysville, Utah

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3706#203706

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

aviateer

Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 23

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Lowell,

  

 I think you guys will remember me. I have been off the list for about 2 years now since my 912 UL Sh*t the bed.

  

 I have tried everything to try to fix the rough running engine (which causes the carbs to leak gas out of the vent tube while flying).  I trailered the entire aircraft down to a maintenance facility in southern Wisconsin. It has been there for nearly a year. The engine is now at Leading Edge Air Foils in Lyons WI and they don't have a clue as to why it is running that way. Eric Tucker himself looked at this engine and cannot figure it out.

   

 They say it is beyond repair and they do not know why. Rotax will not stand behind the engine as they say it is out of warranty. It has less than 400 hours on it.

  

 So, I was looking for an alternative to the 912 UL. I would like something American made. The continental was looking good, but it is too heavy. I was considering the Jabiru, but the foreign made thing scares me with the parts and service (been there done that with Rotax).

   

 If Lycoming or Continental made a small 130 lb engine installed, I could have brought it right over to Buldoc at Anoka here in MN. 

  

 If I had the financial backing, I would like to make an engine right here in MN and sell it for a fair price and service it 100%. I would use "Six Sigma" and "Lean Manufacturing" Techniques . I would hold true to the "Toyota Way" (that was really invented by Henry Ford). 

   

 I know there is a rotary engine being produced in the USA that is comparable to the Rotax in weight and horsepower, but I think it is a two stroke, and it has not been proven.

  

 Maybe I could invent a small 120 hp / 100 pound turbine for the Kitfox...Hmmmmm. Anyone want to start an engine manufacturing plant with me? The engine would have to be lubricated with vegetable oil, and run on water. OK, I'm tired... sorry for the rant.

 

 I will probably purchase another 912UL and hope that this one will work through to the full TBO.

  

 Kirk

 

 

 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

Kirk,



For all the Rotax guys, could you comment on the sickness?



Lowell



do not archive

---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Kirk sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Anyone want to start an engine manufacturing plant with me? The 

engine would have to be lubricated with vegetable oil, and run on 

water...


	


No, but I'll be first in line to buy one from you when you get it 

into production!



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ



Do not archive

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru

 	  aviateer wrote: 	
		     

 They say it is beyond repair and they do not know why. Rotax will not stand behind the engine as they say it is out of warranty. It has less than 400 hours on it.

  

	




Kirk,



That really sucks.  There must be someone somewhere that can figure this out...  Keep trying, someone will probably hit on it sooner or later.  I would suggest you call Lockwood Aviation technical support line, and ask for Kerry, he is their most experienced mechanic.  Its a long shot, but if I was in your situation, I would be trying anything and everything ( As long as it did not cost to much money  ).  The call is free..



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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